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 Post subject: bottle size
PostPosted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 6:15 pm 
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Talk about this a little while a go just after some answer now, motor comes off the road the first month of next year to finish all off what I need to know is how much room do I need for bottles i.e. it’s a diesel car with a new install of stereo going in boot so need to make room I did speak about getting ecu re map but can not find any where to re map it as it’s a in port so I think i am going to need to run gas for more fuel as well as nos and water just need to know dimension of bottles and mounting brackets many thanks dave
i know the size of the nos bottle its the size of the other bottle that i need to put lpg (i think) for more fuel

wish all a happy new year


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 Post subject: Re: bottle size
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 4:33 pm 
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Hi Dave,

Very sorry that I missed this post till now and hope my response isn't too late.

You could carry adequate propane in quite a small size cylinder and certainly one that is smaller than the nitrous cylinder, so you shouldn't have any problem with that.

I haven't worked out the required size or ratio of one to the other yet (although I do intend to when i get time to do so), but I'd guess that a 2lb cylinder of propane would be enough for a 11 lb cylinder of nitrous.

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 Post subject: Re: bottle size
PostPosted: Mon Feb 08, 2010 11:02 pm 
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The stoich ratio for nitrous:propane is 10:1...so if you were making all your extra power from a mix of the two then Trev's 2lb bottle suggestion would more than cover you.
However as you're a diesel you probably won't be running a stoich mixture.I reckon a 16 or 20 oz bottle will do you and they are both considerably smaller than a 2lber.

DO NOT BE TEMPTED TO RUN RICH ON PROPANE,it gets hotter on the rich side of stoich and there is NO cooling effect from excess gaseous fuel,as there is with liquids.

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 Post subject: Re: bottle size
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 1:23 am 
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Thanks for the contribution Nige. :yes:

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 Post subject: Re: bottle size
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 10:00 am 
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Hi Guys

Just going to put a few pence in as I'm doing LPG etc on a diesel. Hope you dont mind.

Whatever happens run the LPG WAY lean. Too much LPG in a diesel (and you can use the LPG as a power adder on its own) then you will get det very quick - then drive over your crank shaft!

Go at it the other way to sparkers - REALLY REALLY lean then very slowly richen this up.

Instead of injecting liquid as I do on my own car, I am using an evaporator to put in vapour on the diesel. This way I can control it more easily (and incidently run it when not looking for power to stretch the expensive diesel stuff) It is also boost controlled - more boost = more diesel = ability to have more LPG without trouble.

We looked at the american Powershot 2000 but there were lots of warnings that it should only ever have vapour to it and lots of cases when a full LPG tank sloshed liquid into the unit and BAM - new engine required.

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 Post subject: Re: bottle size
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 4:48 pm 
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Agree entirely but we also found that by adding one of our water injection system we could crank up the power levels without problems. :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: bottle size
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:23 pm 
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We really need to find a fuel chemist :beatstick: Why can you run a diesel really lean and not melt it? I can sort of get my head round diesel rich making more power and therefore heat,until you get too high a temp.I understand the different type of burn involved in a diesel-which leads to no evaporative cooling effect.But why is it so different to petrol? run lean, even na, on petrol and you can melt things,run rich and upto a point you'll make more power,then power will drop of and so will heat.

Then you look at propane...no evaporative cooling -as it's gaseous- but richer than stoichemetric (15:1) and it gets hotter,leaner than stoich it gets cooler but flame speed drops off to dangerously slow rates -as in burning in the exhaust....BUT it'll detonate in a diesel????

I have read that the extra heat of rich mixtures with diesels is connected to the %hydrogen.

Why can't you use liquid lpg Steve? surely with liquid you'd get some cooling effect on the incoming air charge so improving VE,sort of helping along the air surplus???

Trev,you've mentioned a wi kit a few times,any chance of more details when you have time?

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 Post subject: Re: bottle size
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 7:08 pm 
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battyone wrote:
We really need to find a fuel chemist :beatstick: Why can you run a diesel really lean and not melt it? I can sort of get my head round diesel rich making more power and therefore heat,until you get too high a temp.I understand the different type of burn involved in a diesel-which leads to no evaporative cooling effect.But why is it so different to petrol? run lean, even na, on petrol and you can melt things,run rich and upto a point you'll make more power,then power will drop of and so will heat.
Due to lack of time (being the same reason I had to drop the other tech topic - temporarily I hope), I can't get too involved in this subject but my BASIC understanding of the main cause for the differences, is that diesel runs at lower temps than petrol and therefore engine parts are at either no risk or at least less risk of melting when lean.

Then you look at propane...no evaporative cooling -as it's gaseous- but richer than stoichemetric (15:1) and it gets hotter,leaner than stoich it gets cooler but flame speed drops off to dangerously slow rates -as in burning in the exhaust....BUT it'll detonate in a diesel????

I have read that the extra heat of rich mixtures with diesels is connected to the %hydrogen.
As for all the above, haven't got time to even THINK about them, never mind respond to them but please let me know if some conclusive facts are decided on.

Why can't you use liquid lpg Steve? surely with liquid you'd get some cooling effect on the incoming air charge so improving VE,sort of helping along the air surplus???
I think that's mainly due to the more accurate control over how much is delivered when using gas rather than liquid. However, we've had good results on liquid and had 5th Gear not messed us about, that would have been amply demonstrated by the Golf TDI we did for them, because when using the propane (liquid) and water it was mental but thanks to 5th Gear the actual run on the TV was WITHOUT BOTH.

Trev,you've mentioned a wi kit a few times,any chance of more details when you have time?
I'll have to get them added to our website, as I'm getting a lot of interest in them of late. We basically use our nitrous components in a water injection format (so they are seriously high quality and overkill compared to most other water kits) and they work on an old tried and tested method, rather than the ERL high pressure method of getting the water in to an engine, which I think is much better. However, we do not as yet offer the type of elctronic control that ERL offer (although a Minimax would come close in some respects), so i feel we are not as strongly positioned in the market as I like to be (THE BEST) and that's the main reason why I haven't done more to sell my systems.

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 Post subject: Re: bottle size
PostPosted: Tue Feb 09, 2010 11:34 pm 
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:lol: Yep Water injection is good - actually Dave - if you fit a water meth kit you may not need LPG - you can add a 50/50 water meth mix and use the meth as the added fuel with the water and meth cooling the intake charge and stabilising the mix. (I dont know the chemistry but it works)

As we have said before - Rich and Lean are not really terms we can use with a diesel as it works so differently from a sparker in this situation.

OK mamoth post - sorry guys trying to get it all down - please correct me as you see fit.

With the LPG mix on a sparker we want a mix that will go bang easily and use as much of the oxidiser and fuel as possible the whole thing is set off by a flash of electricity.

On a diesel you dont want too much extra fuel as you are going to inject a LOAD of fuel into the cylinder directly, you also dont want too fast a burn of the LPG.

From what I understand of problems with detonation in petrols and how the diesel works as well as stuff I have picked up Detonation may not be strictly the right term to use on a diesel just like rich and lean.

The effect of an amount of LPG almost appropriate for a sparker is sort of a bang from the LPG using most of the oxidiser ahead of the diesel burn which is slower, MUCH slower now due to the lack of oxidiser from the LPG ignition. AND several droplets of diesel will enter the cylinder in different directions, start burning and ignite several different areas of the LPG mix - from what I have learned so far this is a BAD thing having several flame fronts.

With less LPG then it burns slower as you say Nige but this works as the separate flame fronts could be enveloped by the diesel flame or just be part of the diesel flame - no detonation just more power.

If you use liquid LPG then you end up with WAY too much LPG causing issues. The amount of LPG that is added is really small. You would end up with something like a 2-5 size jet in the LPG and a 100 jet in the Nitrous and that could still be too much. I havent tried calculating it but it is a REALLY small amount of LPG compared.

I have spoken to quite a few LPG specialists - all people who fit kits to petrol and diesels
ALL the LPG specialists I have spoken to say you MUST NOT allow liquid LPG into a diesel engine even with nitrous and make sure you only use a little vapour, then turn up the added amount slowly and carefully monitoring for det rattles.

I know this isnt true of sparkers - I have had my fuel solenoid stick quite a few times at the end of the 1/4 - all that happens is the engine DIES.

So far on the Fabia I have had a few things that back up what I have been told.

At tick over I released too much LPG - the engine started to pick up then rattled loudly at me - I VERY quickly turned off the LPG and it took a few seconds to settle back down and several minutes for my pulse to slow and my heart to get back to the right place :shock: . At higher revs I noticed the rattle so again backed off the LPG.
The rev limit is 4500 and diesel alone this cannot be exceeded - On a road test it got to 5000 with LPG only turned on and would have carried on if I had not stopped the driver (I wasnt driving btw) I have now turned the LPG down some more so this CANNOT happen again.

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 Post subject: Re: bottle size
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:07 pm 
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rapidblue wrote:
As we have said before - Rich and Lean are not really terms we can use with a diesel as it works so differently from a sparker in this situation.
I think they can still be used,as long as it is understood that the start points are different..ie stoich 14.7:1 for petrol ,but with diesels always being "leaner" than the stoich 15:1, normally running in the mid 20's:1 under power.More fuel is still richer,less is leaner.diesel idle at 60:1 is well lean :lol:

OK mamoth post - sorry guys trying to get it all down - please correct me as you see fit.

With the LPG mix on a sparker we want a mix that will go bang easily and use as much of the oxidiser and fuel as possible the whole thing is set off by a flash of electricity.

On a diesel you dont want too much extra fuel as you are going to inject a LOAD of fuel into the cylinder directly, you also dont want too fast a burn of the LPG.
That could be where the problem is,the lpg will not ignite until the diesel is injected,but as soon as it does it'll all go off

From what I understand of problems with detonation in petrols and how the diesel works as well as stuff I have picked up Detonation may not be strictly the right term to use on a diesel just like rich and lean.
I think it'll be the same,but while you're just on diesel it won't/can't happen

The effect of an amount of LPG almost appropriate for a sparker is sort of a bang from the LPG using most of the oxidiser ahead of the diesel burn which is slower, MUCH slower now due to the lack of oxidiser from the LPG ignition. AND several droplets of diesel will enter the cylinder in different directions, start burning and ignite several different areas of the LPG mix - from what I have learned so far this is a BAD thing having several flame fronts.
The best description of diesel combustion I have seen,described diesel as burning like a candle flame,from the outside in.From that you can see that surrounding the "candle" with a fast burning "explosive" mix would not be a good situation.That could then be detonation as the different pressure fronts collided

With less LPG then it burns slower as you say Nige but this works as the separate flame fronts could be enveloped by the diesel flame or just be part of the diesel flame - no detonation just more power.
sounds good to me

If you use liquid LPG then you end up with WAY too much LPG causing issues. The amount of LPG that is added is really small. You would end up with something like a 2-5 size jet in the LPG and a 100 jet in the Nitrous and that could still be too much. I havent tried calculating it but it is a REALLY small amount of LPG compared.
That makes sense,massive difference in weight/volume between vapour and liquid

I have spoken to quite a few LPG specialists - all people who fit kits to petrol and diesels
ALL the LPG specialists I have spoken to say you MUST NOT allow liquid LPG into a diesel engine even with nitrous and make sure you only use a little vapour, then turn up the added amount slowly and carefully monitoring for det rattles.

I know this isnt true of sparkers - I have had my fuel solenoid stick quite a few times at the end of the 1/4 - all that happens is the engine DIES.
yup thats how I check for propane flow,just activate the fuel noid if it dies we're ok.

So far on the Fabia I have had a few things that back up what I have been told.

At tick over I released too much LPG - the engine started to pick up then rattled loudly at me - I VERY quickly turned off the LPG and it took a few seconds to settle back down and several minutes for my pulse to slow and my heart to get back to the right place :shock: .

I think I was getting det at lower rpm on the bike when I went too rich on the propane.Unfortunately I didn't get enough track time to continue testing
At higher revs I noticed the rattle so again backed off the LPG.
The rev limit is 4500 and diesel alone this cannot be exceeded - On a road test it got to 5000 with LPG only turned on and would have carried on if I had not stopped the driver (I wasnt driving btw) I have now turned the LPG down some more so this CANNOT happen again.
Aha! diesel engine speed is limitted by injection time,by adding extra fuel thru other means you extend the engines rev range :lol:


We need to have another chat about lpg. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: bottle size
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:43 pm 
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Hi Nige - Yes

Need to go get a beer some time!
:cheers:

Thanks for adding that stuff - exactly what i was trying to get at. I think we are in agreement (mostly)

Although rich and lean I still think are misleading with the way the diesel is working. As Rich and lean are applied to a MIX not to adding fuel during the whole process.

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 Post subject: Re: bottle size
PostPosted: Wed Feb 10, 2010 11:28 pm 
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many thanks for the reply`s had a good read on the water/meth mix wow brain jam.think way over my head mmm phoned nos the other day had a chat said about getting a bottle to fit in motor why doing the boot instore, i think i move motor up to them to do the bit`s and bobs i think that be the easy way or i might blow new engine up or be fitting the wrong bit`s and bobs many thanks again dave


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 Post subject: Re: bottle size
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 9:55 am 
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Sorry dave - did get a BIT off bottle sizes

The water meth mix is REALLY easy to fit.

Post us some pics when you get done!

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 Post subject: Re: bottle size
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:13 pm 
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Who do you mean by you spoke to "nos" Dave?

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 Post subject: Re: bottle size
PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 1:38 pm 
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Noswizard wrote:
Who do you mean by you spoke to "nos" Dave?

phoned up contract number on your site monday afternoon spoke to some one about bottle size and can nos bottle`s go a cross the car not back to front they said about water/meth mix and not useing lpg


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