NITROUS OXIDE ( nos / n2o ) advice forum

The NON technical thread
For the technical version click here;
*****Plastic versus braided pipe********

Ok, anyone running or talking about a Wizards of NOS kit is going to end up having this conversation eventually, usually with some "expert" down the pub who knew someone who once had nitrous / used to have nitrous but doesn't any more / read something once / heard something about it once / thinks they know everything.
(Knowing how little you know is proof of intelligence, thinking you know everything just shows how stupid you are)

First things first.
When you talk about nitrous the rule is "the SMALLER the better", its one of the few times this is true, usually it’s only said by people with small tackle
If you run a nitrous system rated at 600hp but only have 100hp jets then we will laugh at you. If you didn't know any better and are simply a victim of the "generic American nitrous companies" marketing then it isn't your fault and we understand, hopefully we'll be able to help you understand how nitrous really behaves, not how people think it works.
In the meantime,
If you only need less than about 90hp use the Wizards 4mm BLACK high pressure pipe.
If you need between 90hp and 150hp then use the Wizards 5mm BLUE high pressure pipe.
If you want more than 150hp then ask the Wizards for suitable braided pipe because they also do smaller than the usual braided pipe just for this job.
If you want 2000hp then they do pipe for that too !
If you've seen sense then ask for a "plastic pipe conversion" to make your generic American system better and quicker performing below 150hp
Think carefully before going to braided pipe on the road, it isn't nice and you'll pay for it with a lack of performance every time you use it.
Using small pipe doesn't mean you have a small Willy !

If you think you know better and think the theoretical size of your system is directly related to your performance and are willing to argue the fact on an open board then be my guest.
You will be shot down in flames.
You will be made to look stupid.
We won't spare a single thought for your feelings.
We will rip you apart just for the fun of it.

Well, now we've got that out of the way, onto the arguments !

Wizards use cheap plastic pipe, not "proper" braided pipe
:roll: This is a perfect example of "a little knowledge being a dangerous thing"
The benefits of "plastic" pipe or to a little more accurate "constant bore" over fancy steel braided pipe are numerous and can be extremely technical, I go into them in a lot more detail on this thread;
*****Insert link here******
But for the benefit of being non technical and keeping it pub friendly;

*Plastic pipe can be made much smaller which makes the system faster.
Braided pipe is restricted by the end fittings, this means using actual pipe that's too big and having a delay every time you use it, it also makes the system less efficient, it’s like watering down your nitrous.

*Plastic pipe keeps nitrous cooler.
If you remember the phrase "cold nitrous is fast nitrous" when fitting a system you'll do a good job. That steel braiding DOESN'T keep it cool !
Exactly what did you think was inside that braided covering ?
Its called PTFE pipe, its so weak that without the steel covering it doesn't even have a pressure rating, because of the steel the actual inner pipe can be made very thin walled which makes it worse at insulating it from heat, the steel actually helps conduct heat to it and makes things even worse. Hot nitrous is slow nitrous.

*Plastic pipe doesn't expand.
This is mainly a benefit to pulsed progressive systems, it doesn't weaken the shockwave that helps keep your bottle pressure more constant.
Steel braided expands a LOT compared to plastic, blame brake pipe people for making you think it doesn't expand, the only pipe it doesn't expand when compared to is RUBBER pipe !

*Plastic pipe is smaller.
When you've run a few braided pipes through modern cars you'll be thankful of this !

*Plastic pipe is plastic.
Sounds daft but when you've had to keep steel braided pipe away from any wiring in a modern car so it doesn't rub through the insulation or you've seen it short out and cause a fire it'll make more sense.

*Plastic pipe can easily be cut to exact length
This keeps performance up and reduces the initial lag when activating a system, being able to cut it yourself using only a sharp knife means no more trying to "lose" a couple of feet in an inner wing.
(see next point)

*Plastic pipe ends can be changed easily.
If you've ever had a braided pipe leak or damaged it a bit by accident you'll find out you have to change the whole thing. What a pain in the ass !
with plastic you cut the end off, fit a new olive and refit it, job done in 32 seconds
(see "How to: Make or repair braided pipes")
http://www.noswizard.com/bboard/viewtopic.php?t=26

*Plastic pipe is tougher.
People seem to think steel braided pipe is indestructible, well it isn't.
It’s easier to kink, easier to crush, easier to twist, it doesn't like movement, and it’s easier to wear through. It just LOOKS tougher.

*Plastic pipe is actually more expensive.
The "cheap" plastic pipe being referred to is standard Nylon 11 or 12 industrial pneumatics pipe, it costs about 53p a meter and can barely take half of the pressure our systems run at.
Wizards pipe is custom made for this job by a specialist nylon pipe manufacturer and is made to Wizards specifications. Having this done has cost them a bloody fortune, just because they wanted to use a "constant bore" pipe and give YOU and I the best pipe for the job.
Give them some credit and have some respect !
By the way, it's the cheap stuff (well a very close relative) that’s stopping the truck in your mirrors, not braided steel "pretty" pipe.
The springy coils between the power unit and trailer are cheap nylon pipe,
emergency is red, service is yellow and auxiliary is blue.


Plastic pipe bursts, cracks or splits
You'll hear this from idiots, people selling braided and American nitrous companies (no offence intended guys)
Firstly the Americans;
They've started using some nylon pipe for their systems, and their using low pressure pipe to join the solenoid to the injectors (foggers) BUT they fit their jets in the injectors (Because they think they know better) and this means the pressure in the pipe is a lot higher than the pressure in our solenoid to injector pipes so theirs burst.
Cheap pipe + wrong application = Stupid (or just plain ignorant)
They've also started using plastic pipe for the main pressure pipe which is a start, it’s a shame their using the wrong type.
(It’s barely any better than braided pipe, but its cheap, does the job and is commercially available.
Guess which company puts customers first ? )

Now the idiots / people selling braided pipe;
Of course their going to knock the opposition ! They won't invest a ton of money in buying miles of pipe just so they can have it specially made and have to fight popular opinion to justify it like the Wizards do !
Why the hell would they ? Braided sells itself just by sitting there looking pretty.
*Cracks
I haven't seen any in 14 years of using the stuff, maybe they were using cheap pipe ?
*Splits
Nope, I've not seen these either
*Bursts
The only time this pipe bursts is when it’s damaged;
Kinked when installed.
Scratched badly when installed.
Cut by being next to a sharp edge.
Locally overheated.
So if someone’s had problems what are they most likely because of ?
Dodgy installation !
All the things that damage plastic pipe damage braided pipe too, I’ve seen loads of faulty braided pipes and I change industrial braided pipes on a daily basis, does this mean braided is crap ?
No because it looks pretty.

There was a time when people had problems using the 4mm black pipe, somehow a batch was made very slightly too small and the olives wouldn't grip it properly, if you cut a few inches off it was usually ok.
These few miles of pipe got chucked in the bin and anyone who ended up with some will have complained and had it changed by now if they had any sense, it was several years ago now unlike the dodgy batch of braided pipe I got from another supplier last month, these things happen.
People having problems with 4mm now aren't doing it up right, because its smaller its very susceptible to being under tightened, I’ve never had a problem and at the moment I’ve got one that’s been under pressure for a year with no problems and is still on its original olives.

Ok, I think it’s finished now.
I suppose I’d better write the pages I’ve linked to at some point !
As usual, I'm not above criticism so if you have any comments then look for the button "post reply"
I've never minded constructive criticism

great info but too many references to male genitals for my liking :roll: :roll:

Can you think of a better way of getting the point accross ?
It had me stumped and its a pretty important point that needs emphasising somehow.

Edited down to two, better ?

Even more outstanding work!!!

You do realise that NOBODY will ever believe you aren't being paid by me to say all these supportive comments and do all this work!!! :roll: :roll:

They'd never believe the stick you were giving me the other day either!

All you've done is make life harder for yourself by showing off how smart you are.

Seriously though, thanks for taking so much time to stock up the info base of my new board. I say "my board" but as you've posted more than me (or anyone else), maybe we should call it Loopy's board.

I just hope other people don't nick your work and use it for their own ends as it seems there's plenty of low life people out there who would do exactly that and have no concerns about it (as Denny has found out).

I didn't see the original post with all the references to cocks and hens but surely caney was joking anyway???

Regards

I've taken a couple of comments out because of Caney, TBH they probably weren't nessesary anyway.

I don't bloody care what people think of me, I'm not all that smart in general but there are some things i'm pretty good at and breaking the code of silence or taking the Voodoo out of the magic that seems to surround nitrous is one of them.

So what if people copy it ? It'll mean more educated people in the world and sooner or later those educated people will find out who originally wrote the stuff and question what the hell the other people actually knew if they had to copy other people.
In the mean time if anyone see's this stuff anywhere (and lets face it, my writing is pretty recognisable) let us know here and we'll "Name and shame them" in big assed bold print all over the place

Fair enough!!!! :roll: :roll:

Regards

I forgot to mention, from now on you'll know when you've got the right pipe and you'll know we have our pipe made to our own specification "just" for us!!

From now on our high pressure pipe will have our name and working pressure running down the length of it.

So when some "expert" tells you nylon pipe is only good for 400 psi and that we use "ordinary" pneumatic cheap shit pipe that will burst or crack when used with nitrous, ask them to show you a sample of the pipe to prove it. I can GUARANTEE you that if they give you a sample it WON'T have our name on it!!!

To all those so called "experts" spying on my site and reading this;
All your underhand tactics to discredit my systems are doomed to fail, as all they achieve is to make me more determined to show everyone how stupid you all are. Like this example, now you'll all look like fools if you try telling anyone else that my pipe is "ordinary" cheap pipe. You might also like to know you have to buy 100s of Kilometers to get your own die and to have pipe made to your own spec with your own name on it. That should give you all some idea of how many kits we sell compared to the one or two a week you lot sell to your poor unsuspecting punters.

No doubt you'll take no notice and be stupid enough to turn your false accusations against one of my other components. Please feel free because all I'll do is prove you wrong and make you all look stupid again.

To all my supporters you now have more ammunition against these "experts" and we'll be working to produce more in the near future.


Regards

Well it all made sense to me

Now I must stop using 100bhp jets on old 90bhp rated line might explain some over fuelling problems

Technically it will run 100hp jets at about 4 meters, but only at about 850psi or more
Twists and turns don't help obviously.
Remember the golden rule; If in doubt drop a jet size while maintaining the ratio to look for problems

it was said in jest! write what you want mate

Very true Loopy.
"100 bhp jets", what a n00b I am. That doesn't tell you much. Meant to say N2O jets size of 200 as thats the important number in this discussion ops:

Think I will upgrade anyway as I am still using pipe from the dodgy batch that was going around a couple of years ago, although the fixes that were released at the time, before it was known about the pipe being the problem, seemed to have solved it. Best to be safe though.

No problem Mark.
But bear in mind that not ALL of the pipe was faulty, it just had a slight variance in its outside diameter (which doesn't normally matter) and it caused a few problems, if you'vereached a part thats the right size then you won't have any further problems.
But like you say, if you are on 100hp then you are on its limit.

Caney, I didn't take it badly, honest ! But i do value opinions and i don't want to go alienating people just by making a daft remark that may devalue a subject, you were right and with hindsight it is better without the other two comments. So please feel free to comment !
I can always ignore you !

I have finally realised where this kind of crap comes from;
(I can't quite believe I didn't make the connection before )
Has anyone else here owned a Ford Escort XR3i with Bosch K-Jetronic fuel injection ?
Its basically a purely hydraulic continuous spray fuel injection, hydraulicly speaking it was a marvel.
BUT
Good old Ford went and saved a few pennies and rather than use braided pipes like Volkswagen did they used plastic and you'll find the warning about checking the pipes for radial cracks in most buyers guides. They almost always happened right by the end fittings where the pipe had been swelled to fit the spigots.
I never made the connection because to me these pipes aren't anywhere near the same thing.
Different plastic
Different grade
Different use
But to Joe average they're plastic pipes "just like the Wizards"
and they certainly do crack.
THANKS HENRY !!!
Finally found the other source of the crap. I'd always wondered where else it was coming from.

I didn't know the 'old' 4mm line was only good up to 90bhp. I'm still using it with my install and 125bhp jets. It does explain why the power tales off though as the minimax reaches 100%. The setup does run rich but I prefer this 'safety' setup because it's on my every day car................but now I'm thinking I can get more power from my system for the price of replacing the nylon line. My system is about five years old and never let me down but it might be time to 'overhaul' it to the current standard Trev has set............where's my piggy bank gone?

On 125hp then you really do need to go to 5mm.
But remember, redo the static and check the plugs on the way back up to 125hp, the actual jetting can be influenced by the pipe.
It shouldn't have made any difference upto 90hp ish but better safe than sorry eh ?
It's my daily car too, so i understand "safe" but that goes beyond safe and starts to get near damaging having all that extra fuel at the top end.

All true!!

Regards

Thanks for the advice Loopy, I'll drop back to 100bhp jets for now and try a higher initial setting for the minimax with a longer build up time until I order the new line from Ant....got me a little 'update the system' shopping list going now!
I suppose I could always fit a flamer kit to the exhaust to burn off the excess fuel

All very interesting, and it does all make sense! And like it says, plenty of ammo to shoot back at the non-believers...

Although there still is one area where I think braided lines are preferable. In a friend's 1340cc Suzuki GSX-R he used to get blow-backs through the carbs when shifting gears and passing over 100bhp of nitrous. Cos the carbs were not filtered the blow-back burnt out all the eletrics, and everything else, behind the carbs. After the first time this happened he changed the plastic lines for braided so the fireball wouldn't blow out the lines... Is there an alternative in this situation?

The plastic used by Wizards can actually take a fair bit of stick, he actually made things worse by using braided, it soaks up fuel and "scalds" the teflon by boiling on the inside from the flames on the outside.
( Not that i've ever been so irresponsible as to have inlet fires)

If in doubt then use;
Goodridge firesleeve FG900-03S (£13.09 per M)
DEI heatsheath 010418 (£12.82 per 3 foot)
Both prices are Demon Tweeks

I know this conversation is over a year old but in case anyone finds it when searching for help, I'll just make a comment:

W.O.N can now supply 5mm copper pipe if you have a REALLY inhospitable engine bay. Because of thermal conductivity, not as good as nylon, but an order of magnitude stronger than braided. Wrap it in a "foil n' fibreglass" bandage and you can probably limit the amount of heat it will take on anyway.

Having said that, wrapping normal nylon in a heat proof bandage / passing it through a heat resistant "glass n foil" wrap would protect it very well against brief exposure to quite severe heat / flame.

From a "why haven't they done that yet" point of view. If the bore of the braided hoses are fairly wide, howsabout using nylon line but running it through the "pretty braid". I know there will be some heat soak but it will still give a better performing pipe than normal braided - and will be prettier than plastic. If we are not looking at getting every last drop of power at all times, then this might be a compromise for the folks that insist on things looking pretty, but would actually like fairly keen performance too.

I'm going to be quiet now, this thread was over a year old so I suspect I am chatting merrily to myself anyway

Mark

We have run nylon pipe through conventional braided hose when converting US kits, if the customer wasn't happy with the look of nylon, for many years!

Regards

Hi All

UMMMMM Blue versus Black pipe ????

I have just been supplied by WON with some BLACK PIPE for my 150 hp jetting...

I have BLUE on at the moment and got The BLACK as i wanted around a foot longer pipe....wanted BLUE.....but none in stock ...and told all pipe would now be BLACK.

I have not fitted the BLACK yet...

Are you saying that the bore of BLACK is 1 mm smaller than BLUE and therefore....

I CANNOT run my 150hp on BLACK ????

All the best Brett

Nothing to be concerned about Brett as the NEW black pipe is the same size as the current blue. The colour change is to increase the strength of the pipe as we've discovered that the blue die slightly reduces the potential strength of the material relative to the black die - strange buit true!

Regards

Hi Trev

Phewwwwww....

I applaud your reasons for changing colour....

I cannot even think of another company that would be that fussy...no insult intended ..lol

Many thanks for the reassuring reply

I assume the new olives that I got with my blue pipe will still fit the new Black pipe ?? Same OD etc ?

All the best Brett

We constantly strive to provide the best possible products regardless of all else!!!

Yes the nuts and olives will fit both pipes.

Regards