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 Post subject: Wet vs Dry
PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 9:57 am 
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Hi we are having a little debate about wet vs dry on another car forum!

I have replied that a wet system is best in all applications as you are not relying on your ecu to adapt for additional fuel!
With a wet system obviously you have an additional fuel line so much less likely for the mixture to run lean!

Are there any benefits at all to a dry system that a wet system cannot offer?

And what is reccomended for a TD engine??

Thanks, mitch!

(Do WON even sell a dry kit nitrous system?)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:13 am 
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Quite a bit of the TD information was lost when the forums went "bang" a few months ago but as far as I remember TDs have to be dry amd you need to trick the ECU into adding the extra required fuel.

Apart from certain bike systems (possibly only older ones) I think nitrous systems for TDs are the only dry systems Trev's team sells.

As you say with a wet system you are not relying on methods to "fool" your ECU or carb into "overfuelling" (seems to be generally some non-sensical method of upping fuel pressure that I read somewhere doesn't work as reliably as certain companies would like you to think). Also having a wet system allows you to get the fuelling closer to "best" (not necessarily stoich) than you could with certain dry set-ups.

Another method which was much vaunted by a forum user on the old style forums was the Hondata computer. Obviously this is designed for use with Hondas only as far as I know but not having any experience with the system in question I can't comment further than that ...

Over to the more knowledgable members ...


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:33 am 
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Just as with most things in life both options have their pros and cons.

The pros of a dry system are;
1) No fuel in the manifold
2) Better fuel atomisation (than most systems)
3) Fewer components (if the fueling can be achieved using the existing ECU

The pros of a wet system are;
1) High power gains / £££s spent are possible
2) On a single point injection system less risk of uneven N2O/fuel mix
3) Easier for the average user to set up and tune

This is comparing a GOOD dry system with a GOOD wet system. Currently there are no "GOOD" dry systems for cars.
We offer a the best dry systems for some bikes and we're working towards being able to offer the best dry systems for cars in the near future.
A good dry system uses electronic control of the fuel delivery - a bad one uses a crude fuel pressure increase by pressurising the OEM fuel regulator with nitrous.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 10:33 am 
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Wet is the better solution in almost every case, especially when you are using a controller as it would mean that your ecu would need to monitor the PWM output from the controlelr to know how much fuel to add to match the nitrous, whats the point when the controller can just add it anyway?

Also if you do a good job of mixing the fuel and nitrous then if you end up with more of it going into one cylinder (VERY often happens) you still have the correct mixture in each cylinder, even though the volumes in each are different.
If you use a dry system and get uneven distribution of nitrous then you end up with one cylinder running lean and another running rich, NOT good at all!

Finally, on a pulsed system you get unequal distribution during the pulses even if you go direct port, as the pulses wont ever exactly match the intake pattern of the engine as the rpm changes and so does the PWM output.


So all in all, in almost every imaginable instance a wet system is a FAR safer option.

But what do i know, as someone who just happens to install and setup nitrous systems frequently compared to someone on a forum who has probably never even been in a car with nitrous and is a keyboard expert? :lol:



Your best bet mate is to learn to just ignore idiots like that, sit back and watch them try it (which 99% of them will NEVER do cause the talkers arent the doers normally!) and let them learn the hard way!


Feel free to quote me on any of that or link here, as moderator of the forum its my job to have to put up with morons that you have the luxury of being able to ignore!


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:14 pm 
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Chip - you obviously have a lot of very valuable experience in wet systems, but very little experience in dry systems and so have given a very biased view point as moderator

Suggesting anyone using/trying a dry system is an idiot suggests you have a lack of understanding of the subject you are moderating and shows you as living in the dark ages with no grasp of modern technology or the future

Wet systems are archaic and most will eventually be replaced by dry systems for the following reasons:

The best way to fuel an engine today is by fuel injection - the big motor companies have invested millions in injectors and control systems to provide the best atomisation possibe. The design of any nitrous/fuel nozzle system has not and never will get anything like the fine atomisation, repeatability and consistancy of a fuel injector. As Trev says above upping the fuel pressure is not good however this is no longer required as modern fuel injectors work over such a hugh range. The 4 injectors on my 1200cc bike tick over happily without gas, yet will flow 480bhp of fuel just by increasing the injection pulses. (I do agree with your points on single point injection - my comments are purely for multi-point). Also this accurate precise fuelling means you can confidently run higher A:Fs than you would with a 'hit and miss mixture' wet system where you have to run rich to avoid problems (I run 12.5 to 13.0 :1 dry vs 12:1 wet). You can even run it closed loop :shock:

Furthermore when you activate the injectors the fuel hits the motor the on the next stroke - there is no delay which all wet systems have (a controller with a nitrous delay will address this but is fighting the effect and not the cause, and is of no use on systems which are repeatedly re-activated)

Having got rid of all the wet parts (lines, pumps, solenoids, distribution, nozzles etc) you can then inject the nitrous wherever you want - ideally upstream of the butterfly so you get the cooling effect through the venturi, another benefit over direct port injection being if the butterfly is shut you can't accidentally give the engine gas.

Another major probelm with wet systems running big power gains, especially on bikes, is that when shifting under ignition kill you get backfires. With a dry fuel injection system this is simply erradicated by cutting the fuel on the shift too - you can't do this on a wet system

I do not believe there is any supporting evidence that a wet system makes more power than a dry system, and in my experience because you can run a leaner mixture the dry system makes more power

Small power systems, carburated, with simple DIY installs for people who are only starting out with nitrous - then wet is ok

Any vehicle that runs fuel injection should run a dry system,

In fact I would argue that any carb'd vehicle should be converted to fuel injection if you are serious about you nitrous power anyway

I have converted mine to fuel injection and dry nitrous from all the problems I encountered running big gas (190bhp hit onto a 120bhp n/a engine). The dry system has erradicated all my problems that the inherent design of the wet system had. I have even just run flyers at 190mph with 130bhp of gas on a 120bhp motor for over 10 secs - something I would never had had the confidence to do with a wet system

Regards, Another Idiot ;) ;) :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 12:39 pm 
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El Sparticus,
Does all your information apply to a car? You mentioned bike injectors that support a lot of hp but from my knowledge it's not as easy on a car motor, over here anyway. You need to run big injectors to support a big DRY hit but then the injectors are way oversized for all the non-nitrous use.

Yes a reliable DRY system would be much nicer to have but setting one up isn't so easy, as of now anyway. You will need a reliable and expensive fuel management computer, plus expensive fuel injectors to upgrade to. I don't see a wet system being replaced so easily as you mention.

Then you will need to tune each cylinder via the fuel injector for proper a/f which isn't so necessary with a wet system. The average user will most likely prefer a wet system for the ease of set-up.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:08 pm 
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racetested wrote:
El Sparticus,
Does all your information apply to a car? You mentioned bike injectors that support a lot of hp but from my knowledge it's not as easy on a car motor, over here anyway. You need to run big injectors to support a big DRY hit but then the injectors are way oversized for all the non-nitrous use.

Yes a reliable DRY system would be much nicer to have but setting one up isn't so easy, as of now anyway. You will need a reliable and expensive fuel management computer, plus expensive fuel injectors to upgrade to. I don't see a wet system being replaced so easily as you mention.

Then you will need to tune each cylinder via the fuel injector for proper a/f which isn't so necessary with a wet system. The average user will most likely prefer a wet system for the ease of set-up.


My testing has all been done on a bike but I wouldn't really get too concerned about car or bike - an internal combustion engine is an internal combustion engine

As mentioned above my injectors allow the motor to tick over fine (I use the bike for daily transport) (and they are fuel injectors - use them on any vehicle you want....not bike or car specific) but when the map calls for it they flow 480bhp - 4 injectors, one per cyl. All the big turbo bikes over here run them now too - 620bhp+ on 4 injectors, and they tick over and run with no boost fine - they really have come a very long way in the last year or so. And you can buy them in the US for $65 ea! They certainly do them upto 750cc/min each at 43psi

My DTA fully programmable ECU which does both fuel and ignition (and I control the 'dry' fuel and the retard through this) cost £650 - not a lot really....

Why do you need to tune each cylinder? We are all happy that Trevs distribution after a single jet to multiple injection points is ok (and I have done my own tests to prove this for myself) so just use Trevs distribution system. If the N2O is evenly split then you just fuel the same extra in each cyl. A lambda sensor means you get the A:F correct and individual exhaust gas temp sensors show the balance is ok if you are not convinced

You are quite right, and I noted this in my post above, that for the 'average' user wet is still the way to go on a car but only because the technology has not been developed - not because anyboy considering it is an idiot or a moron as quoted by Chip :lol:

cheers racetested :)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:28 pm 
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One other major benefit of a dry system over a wet system is when using a progressive.

When progressively pulsing the fuel on a wet system at say 50% you are not running 50% of the fuel - you are running 100% of the fuel for 50% of the time - so some powercycles will see double the amount of fuel it needs and others no fuel :shock: :shock: Not really what we are trying to acheive

A dry system will give exactly 50% of the fuel on every stroke

One minor issue here is that the gas is also pulsing but due to the distribution system acting as a buffer this is not significant - ideally this would be a smooooth system/pro-shot. This combined with a dry injected system is the ultimate perfect design

I'd put money on the fact that in 5yrs time most of Trevs systems will be dry (The US systems have not changed for 30 years so I see no reason that they will suddenly want to change :lol: :lol: )


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:29 pm 
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Sparky,

It's not that Chip is wrong or that he lives in the dark ages, it's the nitrous companies that are in the dark ages!!!!
Knowing you to be a nice bloke I'm a bit surprised that you came down so heavy on Chip but then it's my guess that as dry systems are now your pet project, you've over reacted to Chips comments.
Chip is a very smart guy and in no way biased, he's just stating the facts based on his experience with CAR systems which have a huge majority over bike kits.

Existing dry kits for cars have few if any of the benefits you mention because they are so crude and suffer the problems that Chip mentioned.

Whilst you're 100% right when comparing a well designed dry system with a badly designed wet system, as would be the case when comparing a BTC dry kit with a NOS wet kit, Chip is talking about the real world majority by comparing a Zex or NOS dry kit with "my" wet systems.

The vast majority of the problems experienced with other wet kits I've resolved by designing the most advanced systems (as you know) and as I mentioned earlier I'm on the path to offering a dry system that has all the benefits that our current dry bike systems (in conjunction with Brad) offer customers. Until we do get such a dry system in to production Chips advice to car customers is 100% correct.
Oh and remember cars don't have sequential boxes and no pb shifters so the ignition kill problem is only applicable to bikes.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:40 pm 
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Trev,

We both know that dry is the future - Chips post ignored that and doesn't give a balanced view.

I thought it was fair to air the technology that is on the horizon.

I didn't mean to come down hard on Chip :redface: no offense ment - sorry Chip - but was possibly a little grated by us people who are amoung the few progressing nitrous technology (including you, Brad) being called idiots and a morons ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 1:52 pm 
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Chip wasn't aiming that comment at anyone related to this forum, he was talking about the Zex & NOS supporters on other ill informed car forums that Mitch is having to battle with (such people will have no idea that a BTC system even exists or the reasons why such a system would be the better option).

Chip knows that I'm working on all sorts of advances in nitrous technology so he wouldn't knock the potential of whatever I produce (as long as it lived up to my claims and his expectations).

I think you've just taken his comments personally because your links are to bikes and not cars. Anyone who promotes "existing" dry CAR systems (like the Zex or NOS gear), over one of my wet systems is a fool and that was his point. ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:07 pm 
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Sparticus, the key points (on CURRENT nitrous systems im talking about, once we are on smoothy progressive i agree its DP and Dry all the way from there on in, but that is NOT technology available yet) your comment that you yourself seemed to have missed is this:

Quote:
A dry system will give exactly 50% of the fuel on every stroke


This point you make is EXACTLY AND TOTALLY CORRECT

And there in lies the problem, because no current pulsed progressive system will do the same with the nitrous, so you end with perfect disitrubution of only one of the two ingredients, which doesnt make for nice cakes!

So while we live in a world with uneven distribution of nitrous we also need to live with uneven distribution of fuel too to match it, so that we dont get variance in the mixture between cylinders.


Apologies for the moron comment in terms of yourself (you are FIRMLY in the minority though, and that comment geuinely does apply to most dry enthusiasts ive spoke to!), the humble pie tastes lovely and im still thoroughly enjoying it :lol:




In 5 years time i expect to be using a smoothy nitrous solenoid and a mappable fuel delivery system (ie DTA) on my car, so i agree on Dry being the future ONCE THE TECHNOLOGY IS AVAILABLE, which to me (and other board users) currently it is not.

Im not anti-dry, im just anti-the-dry-crap-on-the-market-currently


Hope that clears a few things up in terms of where i was coming from?



Airing technology thats on the horizon like you were doing is great, but the question wasnt asked about the near future (i would have given a COMPLETELY different answer with far more in common with yours) so as somone who should realise that i was answering based on the systems the guys in questioning were actually using, not might be available soon, i do indeed think you came down hard on me, but i couldnt actually care less, its only the internet, and if it made you feel better to take my post completely out of context and try and look clever then thats cool by me.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:12 pm 
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8) 8)

All happy now after our team hug :lol:

Trev :D
Chip :D


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:28 pm 
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I'm happy!!!! :mrgreen:

Chip sounds happy (especially after he gave you a bit of your own medicine). :lol:

So that makes us all happy. 8)

That's how a debate should proceed, with both sides being open minded enough to appreciate the other sides point of view, being smart enough to recognise a good point when you see it and then being man enough to acknowledge when the others point is better than your own. Oh and I'm not being specific about who, when and where that applies to in this instance as there's enough for all to share. ;)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:12 pm 
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I was told that Trev plans on being retired in 5 years so he better introduce an advanced dry system sooner than mentioned. LOL


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:32 pm 
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Perhaps all will be revealed in volume two?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2005 5:46 pm 
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How true Jimbo and just so everyone knows that this is not pub talk, I've just finished a long phone call with the guy who will be working with me to produce the ultimate dry system, which I hope to have on offer by this time next year (at the latest).

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 1:58 am 
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so hang on then, if trev retires, who's gonna be the new vtec turbo trev? will WON become a company with marketing managers employing car tuner types to act as the r & d guys?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2005 2:23 am 
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I doubt things will change much at all as Trev will stay on as a consultant and all the loyal workers now will continue to operate as usual. 5 years is still a long way away so no need to worry yet. :)


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 10:11 am 
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Trev has more chance of winning miss world than he has of ever totally letting go the reigns at wizards of nos!

BUT, although Trev is obviously a great asset to the company, dont underestimate just how good people like Ant and David actually are at R&D as well.

Trev, keep my name to one side to come on board as Ants apprentice if/when he takes over the day to day running, i will try and make enough money in the mean time that i can afford to work for you on the low wages you pay :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 22, 2005 11:05 am 
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All very true about my team.

I'll keep you in mind for the apprentice job you cheeky buggar!!!! :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 11:54 am 
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El Sparticus I feel the need to defend the prehistoric :lol: wet system with some facts ,you state you have achieved 190 mph and on the bottle for 10 seconds
1. the worlds fastest nitrous bike 20y/o Kawka used one of those wet abominations with carbs and it was a yank one to boot 228 mph on the bottle 30+ seconds at 200+ shot
2. 2nd fastest nitrous bike ( busa ) 220 + mph a wet system
3. I have achieved many runs in excess of 200 mph wet system with a high of 216 mph (busa) which is now waiting for a Smoooth system ;) and Ill let you know how my 20 y/o GPZ carby /alky 3 stage wet system goes soon.
when the superior dry systems match and surpass these achievements I will accept your arguments and swap over ,untill then WET rules :twisted:
Gary hawkwind racing

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:09 pm 
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Gary,

Sparky is right about the theory and potential of dry systems, so just think how much faster these guys will be able to go when we do offer a GOOD dry system. :twisted: :twisted:

They could even go so much faster now if they were using a GOOD wet system. ;) :mrgreen: :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: Wet vs Dry
PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 12:52 pm 
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[quote="Mitchy"]Hi we are having a little debate about wet vs dry on another car forum!

I have replied that a wet system is best in all applications

Are there any benefits at all to a dry system that a wet system cannot offer?
quote]

Gary,

Above are the original questions posted which I gave the dry nitrous viewpoint to - as I read it a debate on wet vs dry, period - not a question of what is the best at the moment/historically which is they way others (you and chip for example) have read it

Your acheivements over the years with wet systems are beyond reproach and have the full respect they deserve 8) 8) 8)

Without a doubt 20yrs ago when EFI did not exist and all we had was carbs and holley pumps then wet was the only option. However things are changing

You state" when the superior dry systems match and surpass these achievements I will accept your arguments and swap over ,untill then WET rules" seems a little odd. The arguments are valid now - dry is happening. The interesting point for me is that you will only change when someone else has got the results. This is were we differ greatly with our motivations. You want to use the same proven stuff as everyone else and will only change after others have, sheep mentality. I am interested in the future technology, in developing the equipment that you will be using in a few years time when dry systems start going faster than wet systems in EFI applications.

Each to their own - I respect you acheivements 8)
Maybe you even respect mine on my homebuilt roadlegal 13yr old daily ride that was limited by 190mph gearing, not the dry system.......

This year the winner and runner-up in the UK BigCC/Streetfighters Ultimate Horsepower competition were both dry (with Trevs pulsoids, and I use his progressive too). The winner made 380bhp - from turbo experience a 380bhp Busa will go well over 216mph so you may want to think about going dry now ;) ;) the systems are available. The winner and runner up in the UK 200mph.org Ultimate Streetbike 2005 also went to dry systems

Sparky :)


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 23, 2005 2:38 pm 
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Its amazing how all of us actually know exactly the same things here really at a higher level in terms of the abilities of current systems and also of future systems that we know are in the pipelines, and yet somehow despite all agreeing on every single actual fact, its still turned into something that looks like an argument to an outside set of eyes, only on the internet eh lads?? :lol:


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