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 Post subject: Direct Port in a Classic Car
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:06 pm 
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Hi, First post on here so go easy on me haha!!

I recently purchased a kit from a friend of mine that was hardly used. I have a classic car with a 1100cc motorbike engine in the back of it and I'm wanting to use nitrous to give it a bit more kick. Currently the engine is rated to around 100 bhp and revs to 9,500 / 10,000 rpm before the limiter chokes it. The kit i bough was hardly used and has all the most recent pulsoids etc. and bottle heater - but is a street blaster kit, so only one crossfire injector. I will be using ITB's and probably trumpets with some sort of individual filter sock.

So basically it looks like i will need to convert the system to direct port in some way or another. Thing is there seems to be so many different ways of doing this - Individual venoms, crossfire injectors, discharge tubes!?! For the size of engine, id imagine 50bhp would be the most i could get out of a more or less standard engine before i need to start upgrading the internals - so ideally i want to use the most cost effective yet reliable solution possible. I'm also looking into the best bang for buck controller or control system to use as the car is very light with a standard gearbox and the last thing i want to do is bash the limiter and backfire or shock the transmission with a sudden bout of power. I was looking at buying a used MAX Extreme - even the older V1 model but they are still strong money or trying to combine a Mini Max with a window switch of some description.

Here are a couple of examples of direct port from the tinterwebs i found - no doubt they are not the best examples...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_EGIf8NyDqo0/SzotOA__YPI/AAAAAAAAAfA/BXinu9tL54A/s400/DSC01962.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/brookster16v/mk1directport1.jpg


Any help would be MASSIVELY appreciated... :salute:
Dan


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 Post subject: Re: Direct Port in a Classic Car
PostPosted: Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:04 pm 
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Hillman wrote:
Hi, First post on here so go easy on me haha!!
Welcome to the forum!

I recently purchased a kit from a friend of mine that was hardly used. I have a classic car with a 1100cc motorbike engine in the back of it and I'm wanting to use nitrous to give it a bit more kick. Currently the engine is rated to around 100 bhp and revs to 9,500 / 10,000 rpm before the limiter chokes it. The kit i bough was hardly used and has all the most recent pulsoids etc. and bottle heater - but is a street blaster kit, so only one crossfire injector. I will be using ITB's and probably trumpets with some sort of individual filter sock.
Interesting project. It will also be an easy nitrous conversion to make it work for you.

So basically it looks like i will need to convert the system to direct port in some way or another. Thing is there seems to be so many different ways of doing this - Individual venoms, crossfire injectors, discharge tubes!?! For the size of engine, id imagine 50bhp would be the most i could get out of a more or less standard engine before i need to start upgrading the internals - so ideally i want to use the most cost effective yet reliable solution possible.
One problem that I find when customers research on their own about nitrous is that there is so much information on such a convoluted subject.
The result is a mass of people confusing themselves, getting absurd ideas in their minds, and finally, really weird doubts and total misunderstandings that make it difficult to make recommendations they will accept.

Just FORGET about all of the different forms of nitrous setups for now and just heed my advice: you'll be in good hands.

While you COULD go with the crossfire injectors, they may be tougher to fit,
therefore the smaller venoms may be the best bet. Would the crossfire fit in the runner, or would it be too big? If so, then venoms would be the option to go with.

Discharge tubes are for LARGE power increases, are harder to set up correctly,
and take up more space than standard injector setups.


I'm also looking into the best bang for buck controller or control system to use as the car is very light with a standard gearbox and the last thing i want to do is bash the limiter and backfire or shock the transmission with a sudden bout of power.
Minimax is the best bet for the money while the Maximiser is a step up with more features that could be useful (such as quick mixture adjustments and finer progressive control). Many people believe they automatically need a window switch because of the horror stories of people damaging engines while on the gas. But those stories are results from using OTHER brand kits that are setup for too much of a hit (and a hard one at that) and are often used stupidly by very STUPID end users.
On the other hand, WoN users are SMARTER and the systems are MUCH smoother and more controllable, thus the chances of hitting the nitrous in unfavorable conditions are very SLIM.
If you are an avid racer where you shift very quickly and every so often misshift, then it be worth your while to obtain window control.

I can already tell that you won't be needing to worry about window switches on a 100 bhp engine, especially with only 50 bhp additional and a progressive ramp up (that is, unless you're racing as mentioned before).


I was looking at buying a used MAX Extreme - even the older V1 model but they are still strong money or trying to combine a Mini Max with a window switch of some description.
Maxy's are strong money, but only because they are THE BEST CONTROLLERS and offer mountains of safety and flexibility of the nitrous system.
The window switch is not offered anymore due to the availability of the Max Extremes. If your nitrous is to the level where you really need a window switch,
then the chances are strong that you'll need OTHER ADDITIONAL safety features and that's where it simply best to go with a Maxy.


Here are a couple of examples of direct port from the tinterwebs i found - no doubt they are not the best examples...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_EGIf8NyDqo0/SzotOA__YPI/AAAAAAAAAfA/BXinu9tL54A/s400/DSC01962.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v668/brookster16v/mk1directport1.jpg


Any help would be MASSIVELY appreciated... :salute:
Dan
I hoped I helped you, Dan!


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 Post subject: Re: Direct Port in a Classic Car
PostPosted: Wed Apr 26, 2017 12:45 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:13 pm
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Hi,

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, very helpful - Can finally narrow down my wish list a bit!!

So I'll go with 4 fuel and 4 nos venoms. The problem is that the engine is an inline flat 4, but because it is in the back of the car, the rear bulkhead is close to the top of the engine. This is why im getting a billet the inlet manifold made for it a in a reasonably tight short L shape to make the TB's fit. Location wise and for best results, where should the fuel and nos injectors be placed? I know the fuel should be close but not too close to the inlets on the head to stop valve bounce but how close to the tb can it go? and then spray the nos from the other side of the tb or can they be mounted opposite the fuel venoms?? My concern if that no matter where the fuel is sprayed, it will be to close to the head because of the manifold size and shape and if im honest drilling holes in this manifold is really something id like to avoid if possible. Perhaps I could put the fuel venoms in the boot between the tb and manifold?

Quote:
I can already tell that you won't be needing to worry about window switches on a 100 bhp engine, especially with only 50 bhp additional and a progressive ramp up (that is, unless you're racing as mentioned before).


Why is that? When I say 50bhp shot im happy to go higher than that, i'm just not sure how much it too much?


Quote:
If you are an avid racer where you shift very quickly and every so often misshift, then it be worth your while to obtain window control.


The car will never see a track as such, but will be driven spiritedly. It will also be used at some demonstrations every now and then for auto testing, so will likely hit the limiter when doing doughnuts etc but the throttle input wont always be planted. If I were doing that kind of thing would a mini max not cut the nitrous if i wasn't full throttle then bring it back on progressively after that? Kind of concerned that it could give me snap traction while sliding...

Ive added a photo of the 3d printed manifold so you can see what im talking about and a really bad sketch :lol:

Thanks
Dan


Attachments:
File comment: 3d printed manifold
Mock manifold.jpg
Mock manifold.jpg [ 72.5 KiB | Viewed 2581 times ]
File comment: Sketch
Manifold DWG.png
Manifold DWG.png [ 172.84 KiB | Viewed 2581 times ]
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 Post subject: Re: Direct Port in a Classic Car
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:12 am 
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Location: Orlando, Fl in 'Merrrrica!
Hillman wrote:
Hi,

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions, very helpful - Can finally narrow down my wish list a bit!!

So I'll go with 4 fuel and 4 nos venoms. The problem is that the engine is an inline flat 4, but because it is in the back of the car, the rear bulkhead is close to the top of the engine. This is why im getting a billet the inlet manifold made for it a in a reasonably tight short L shape to make the TB's fit. Location wise and for best results, where should the fuel and nos injectors be placed? I know the fuel should be close but not too close to the inlets on the head to stop valve bounce but how close to the tb can it go? and then spray the nos from the other side of the tb or can they be mounted opposite the fuel venoms?? My concern if that no matter where the fuel is sprayed, it will be to close to the head because of the manifold size and shape and if im honest drilling holes in this manifold is really something id like to avoid if possible. Perhaps I could put the fuel venoms in the boot between the tb and manifold?
It is possible to fit them, yes. However, a crossfire setup would be better because you only need to drill one hole instead of two with the venoms. This will keep the location at the boot or slightly further ahead in the manifold, whichever fits easier. This avoids the fuel bounce ( a problem on high power applications) while also avoiding nitrous reversion.

Quote:
I can already tell that you won't be needing to worry about window switches on a 100 bhp engine, especially with only 50 bhp additional and a progressive ramp up (that is, unless you're racing as mentioned before).


Why is that? When I say 50bhp shot im happy to go higher than that, i'm just not sure how much it too much?
With the progressive control, you'll be able to engage the nitrous at a lower start percentage and have a build up time, which gives you a very controllable car. The revs will come faster, yes, but you will know when to change the gear. For one, you won't be starting out with 50 jets but some lower amount of power like 25 bhp. This will get you used to the way the car responds and as you will then know what kind of response you'll get when more power is applied.

You say you'd like to go higher than 50 hp and that is all fine. Just know that the more power you apply to the engine, the more you'll appreciate the Max Extreme's features. Too much nitrous power is a question that has no real answer to because it all depends on how well designed and built each engine is. I can tell you that a 50% power increase will be significant for an engine of this size and to push the limits will require the advance features of the Max Extreme. Many fragile engines have successfully doubled their power and more with progressive control since the power application is not harsh like that of a fixed hit.

It's funny, most people generally overestimate how much power I'm running in my car when they feel the power come on, and when I tell them, they are instantly shocked by how far off they guessed. It's also the same with the internet, some will claim that they want XXX power and end up with only a fraction of what they wanted because it was too much power LOL! The point is that you should start small and increase the power until you feel the car is where it should be.



Quote:
If you are an avid racer where you shift very quickly and every so often misshift, then it be worth your while to obtain window control.


The car will never see a track as such, but will be driven spiritedly. It will also be used at some demonstrations every now and then for auto testing, so will likely hit the limiter when doing doughnuts etc but the throttle input wont always be planted.
You mean you want to do doughnuts while on nitrous? Not a problem, it's looking like a Max Extreme would be a better fit for you.


If I were doing that kind of thing would a mini max not cut the nitrous if i wasn't full throttle then bring it back on progressively after that? Kind of concerned that it could give me snap traction while sliding...
The minimax has the option of continuing a ramp up if the throttle falls from and reengages the trigger point or start the ramp up process all over again. It's easily done by the adjustments in mere seconds. Again, the Max Extreme is a much better choice for you.

Ive added a photo of the 3d printed manifold so you can see what im talking about and a really bad sketch :lol:

Here are the possible locations for the crossfires. Choose whichever location suits you, but know that you'll need the retainers and spacers for the rubber boots location. The crossfires will lower the cost and reduce installation complexity while still giving you the potential for massive gains.
Attachment:
Mock manifold.jpg
Mock manifold.jpg [ 141.6 KiB | Viewed 2571 times ]


Thanks
Dan


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 Post subject: Re: Direct Port in a Classic Car
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:51 pm 
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Thanks very much, such a great help.

As soon as the car is running I'll buy the rest of my setup

Cheers
Dan


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 Post subject: Re: Direct Port in a Classic Car
PostPosted: Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:16 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Direct Port in a Classic Car
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:44 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Direct Port in a Classic Car
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:48 pm 
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Hi,

Finally got the engine now in the car and wired. So collecting the bits for the WON system now. Ended up using an airbox with a induction tube so will be using one crossfire injector to feed the engine instead of DP.

I have been given the chance at a Max Xtreme X2 with the fuel and nitrous transducers. Thing is there is no wiring loom with it and wiring in general gives me the heave. My question is how easy are Max Extreme's to wire, and how do the wires connect into the ports on the side? I've had a look on the website and it really just shows what ports do what, for example the Nos pressure transducer runs to Port R9 and R1 on the controller, which i would assume be the positive and negative connections - R1 being the +12v output which i'd assume powers the transducer?

Thanks
Dan


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 Post subject: Re: Direct Port in a Classic Car
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:42 pm 
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Location: Orlando, Fl in 'Merrrrica!
Hillman wrote:
Hi,

Finally got the engine now in the car and wired. So collecting the bits for the WON system now. Ended up using an airbox with a induction tube so will be using one crossfire injector to feed the engine instead of DP.

Sounds good.

I have been given the chance at a Max Xtreme X2 with the fuel and nitrous transducers. Thing is there is no wiring loom with it and wiring in general gives me the heave. My question is how easy are Max Extreme's to wire, and how do the wires connect into the ports on the side?

Strip the ends of the wire and the screw in the port clamps down on it. Max's are very easy to wire up the basic functions and sensors.

I've had a look on the website and it really just shows what ports do what, for example the Nos pressure transducer runs to Port R9 and R1 on the controller, which i would assume be the positive and negative connections - R1 being the +12v output which i'd assume powers the transducer?

Most new users have some idea of electrical basics, so they can get by with the info available. On occasion, we do get folks with no electrical experience whatsoever and they do just fine. Each sensor has 2 wires as the sensor acts as a variable resistor. The R1 is the 12v power and the R9 is the resulting information (lesser voltage the Max interprets) and then is displayed on the controller (or used in another function such as a nitrous overpressure alarm).

Thanks
Dan


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 Post subject: Re: Direct Port in a Classic Car
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 9:49 pm 
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Thanks for the reply. Another thing that crossed my mind was if the max extreme was worth the extra money over controllers because there is no signal to determine what gear the car is in from either the gearbox or the ecu. Would i just be a case of setting the same build time and delay in each gear and i will reset every time the rpm drops outwith the window or i lift off the throttle? Sound like it would end up be utilised like a mini max with a Window switch?

Dan


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 Post subject: Re: Direct Port in a Classic Car
PostPosted: Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:40 pm 
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Hillman wrote:
Thanks for the reply. Another thing that crossed my mind was if the max extreme was worth the extra money over controllers because there is no signal to determine what gear the car is in from either the gearbox or the ecu.

There IS a way to signal the Max for each gear by sending a voltage signal unique to each gear. Ask the wizards for details on this.

Would i just be a case of setting the same build time and delay in each gear and i will reset every time the rpm drops outwith the window or i lift off the throttle? Sound like it would end up be utilised like a mini max with a Window switch?

You can use it in this manner and use other functions in the future. The real benefit of the power by gear is during a drag race where traction is an issue or weak drivetrain components. Street driving-wise, you can have a memory setting that has gear power levels and times as you described above and you'll be just fine. Until you need it, you won't fully appreciate the functions the Max has, especially with high power levels. Another BIG feature set is the nitrous and fuel alarms (more engine safeguards) and nitrous pressure compensation where the Max prevents power losses from over fuel enrichment.

I own both the minimax and Max Extremes and I know the expense IS worth it, especially when an unexpected event happens (such as a fuel pump failure) and the Maxy prevents damage by cutting off the system.

The Mini is great for every day cars and bikes with moderate levels of power and only traction problems that warrant progressive control with 100% reliability and simplicity.

The Max is great for RACE cars/bikes and PROJECTS that are usually in a constant state of flux where more power is wanted and the complexity is increased: it is capable of evolving with the build. So when you find your project suddenly becoming more powerful to the point of becoming a handful to control (and more likely for you to make a mistake or a part fail), then I think you'll appreciate the Max in the sense of what it can do and what it's value truly is.

We will help you in any way possible, just keep in mind that the BEST source for any detailed TECH is the wizard HQ at enquiries@noswizard.com


Dan


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