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Newbee

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madbsc

Post subject: Newbee

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:18 am

Newbie

Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:46 pm
Posts: 4

Hi Guys, I am a NEWBEE! I have just acquired a second hand kit and have a few unanswered questions before I commit.

I want to install into a Citroen C2 VTS and I only am looking for 20-50 extra BHP.

My kit comprises of two solenoids with metal pipework, braided supply hose, 24lb bottle, injector and a fair number of jets, switches and cables. I have read the section on the risks of buying second hand (solenoids) and was thinking of buying a NOS to WON upgrade, would this be a wise move? any thoughts on this would be appreciated. My reasoning was to smooth out the power delivery and replace metal supply lines at the same time.

A couple of other things that I have been wondering about.
1. Is it possible to introduce a ball valve next to the drivers seat and leave the tank valve ALWAYS ON?
2. I will have to site my tank sideways on the boot because it is too small to fit length-ways, does that matter?
3. Do I need a gauge for the tank?
4. Will a standard clutch take 20-50 BHP, or should I invest in an competition clutch?

Any comments welcome, Ade.

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Turbobox

Post subject: Re: Newbee

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:40 pm

Wizard

Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:13 pm
Posts: 1004
Location: Orlando, Fl in 'Merrrrica!

madbsc wrote:

Hi Guys, I am a NEWBEE! I have just acquired a second hand kit and have a few unanswered questions before I commit.

Welcome to the forum!

I want to install into a Citroen C2 VTS and I only am looking for 20-50 extra BHP.
A 25 bhp hit would be quite the increase in performance as it is, 50 would be on the mental side.

My kit comprises of two solenoids with metal pipework, braided supply hose, 24lb bottle, injector and a fair number of jets, switches and cables. I have read the section on the risks of buying second hand (solenoids) and was thinking of buying a NOS to WON upgrade, would this be a wise move? any thoughts on this would be appreciated. My reasoning was to smooth out the power delivery and replace metal supply lines at the same time.
YES! YES! It is INFINITELY wiser to get the upgrade EVEN IF THE KIT WAS NEW for reasons that span this forum. Not only would you be getting FAR BETTER performance from a WoN upgrade, but the RELIABILITY is second to none! Other kits (not WoN) REQUIRE rebuilding from time to time to avoid failure as well as totally inadequate pipe work that can cause engine damage in a realatively short time. And it is PURE LUCK when we get people with generic systems claim that they've had reliable performance, especially since they are nowhere near knowledgeable enough to know the difference.

I made the switch myself, using the NOS-to-WON upgrade and I became a WON nut ever since! And I've tested nearly ALL brands of kits (not WoN) resulting in similar, poor results and engine damage.

A couple of other things that I have been wondering about.
1. Is it possible to introduce a ball valve next to the drivers seat and leave the tank valve ALWAYS ON?
It would be required that you upgrade to the nylon supply pipe from the bottle as well (an option for NOS-to-WON) because braided teflon pipe has microleaks that allow the nitrous to escape over time, leaving behind an empty bottle and wasted money.

2. I will have to site my tank sideways on the boot because it is too small to fit length-ways, does that matter?
The difference with fitting the bottle sideways is that surging of the system could occur when the liquid level gets low. If this is a problem, then you can fit two 5 lb bottles or one 5 lb bottle and have a spare one to keep with you.

3. Do I need a gauge for the tank?
I assume you mean a pressure gauge. No, it is not required.

4. Will a standard clutch take 20-50 BHP, or should I invest in an competition clutch?
This is all dependent on the vehicle beacuse of design specs and current condition. It could slip under 25 bhp or it may not. I recommend that you try it first before spending extra money on unneeded parts. Furthermore, you could alleviate a slipping clutch to a degree with a WoN progressive controller.

Any comments welcome, Ade.

That's why we're here!

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madbsc

Post subject: Re: Newbee

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:10 pm

Newbie

Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:46 pm
Posts: 4

Hi and thanks for the advice.

I think I will err on the side of caution then and go for a 25hp increase and see how it goes regarding the clutch.

As with most things it's all about the money I have to spend, so I'll have to see how I get on with the bottle mounted sideways across the car. However, good advice and worth considering as I will have more usable boot space with a smaller bottle.

A problem that I have just spotted is, I can't see any moving parts to use throttle position switch, how do others get round this problem. Maybe they use a manual push button?

There seems to be several types of fittings used, the ones I have are like brake pipe fittings, what is best/common one? Also, there is a test point on the fuel rail, like a tire valve, where I believe I can connect into for fuel supply. However, I'm not sure if there is a type of fitting available for the nylon pipes to fuel rail connection.

Any advice welcome.

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Turbobox

Post subject: Re: Newbee

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:45 pm

Wizard

Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:13 pm
Posts: 1004
Location: Orlando, Fl in 'Merrrrica!

madbsc wrote:

Hi and thanks for the advice.

I think I will err on the side of caution then and go for a 25hp increase and see how it goes regarding the clutch.
Wise move.

As with most things it's all about the money I have to spend, so I'll have to see how I get on with the bottle mounted sideways across the car. However, good advice and worth considering as I will have more usable boot space with a smaller bottle.
It's always about the budget limits with our hobbies, but I assure you that we look out for your wallet IN THE LONG RUN. For example, consider the financial expense of damaging your engine from an inferior nitrous system. Further examples are: the lesser consumption of nitrous WoN kits use to produce more power than the jetting combination (in most cases); softer inset of power to reduce wear/ avoid drive line damage; lifetime duty of the solenoids (Pulsoids); cheaper upgradability due to use of cut-to-fit nylon pipe when adding components, as opposed to one-size-fits-all braided pipe (generic); etc.

A problem that I have just spotted is, I can't see any moving parts to use throttle position switch, how do others get round this problem. Maybe they use a manual push button?
We advise against pushbuttons for novice users as it's far too easy to activate the system in unfavorable engine conditions (IE: too low and RPM or hitting the rev limit). You have 2 options: the best is to use a TPS activated switch and relay (WoN provides those) OR fit the microswitch under the accelerator pedal (a method I've used many times).

There seems to be several types of fittings used, the ones I have are like brake pipe fittings, what is best/common one? Also, there is a test point on the fuel rail, like a tire valve, where I believe I can connect into for fuel supply. However, I'm not sure if there is a type of fitting available for the nylon pipes to fuel rail connection.

Could you post a photo of these lines? I'm going to assume that this is some sort of direct port system? EIther way, fitting type isn't as important as maintaining a constant bore size in the piping, which generic systems FAIL miserably at. WoN uses compression fittings that provide such charateristics.

There are adapters available for fitting to the fuel rail schrader adapters so there is no problem there.

Any advice welcome.

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madbsc

Post subject: Re: Newbee

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:01 pm

Newbie

Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:46 pm
Posts: 4

Hi again, thanks for your advice.

Thank you for your suggested method of attaching tps on throttle pedal, I think that will be much easier than under the bonnet.

I have attached a picture of the bottle connector as it looks like I will be replacing most everything else, including the the feed pipe which is currently braided line.

Looking at the NOS to WON upgrade kit, the only things I will be using from my current kit will be wiring, switches and bottle.

The system I have acquired, had the injector inserted into inlet pipe between the air filter and throttle body.

One other thing, I have traction control or ESP (Citroen), as I understand it it cuts power if wheel-spin is detected. I think this is done by ignition and assume this could be and issue if Nos is being injected at the time, will I need to disable it?

Thanks again, Adrian.

Attachments:

NOS valve.jpg [ 242.7 KiB | Viewed 8139 times ]

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Goyle

Post subject: Re: Newbee

Posted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:36 pm

Learner

Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2015 4:38 pm
Posts: 250
Location: Coventry

Hello and Welcome to the forum... you have certainly come to the right place.

I bought a WON nitrous system a few months a go, and the help and advice on this forum was invaluable to get me up and running.

im running a fixed 40 shot on a 2009 fiesta zetec s, and im a complete WON nitrous junky now :twisted:

_________________
Cars: Ford Mk3 Capri 2.1 and Ford Mk7 Fiesta zetec s (with nitrous)

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Turbobox

Post subject: Re: Newbee

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:29 am

Wizard

Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:13 pm
Posts: 1004
Location: Orlando, Fl in 'Merrrrica!

madbsc wrote:

Hi again, thanks for your advice.
It's a pleasure. We especially like new people willing to try nitrous as they haven't been tainted by the riff-raff of the industry. We ESPECIALLY LIKE those who are smart enough to appreciate the superior design of WoN systems and components as they won't suffer the many headaches others are willing to endure with other generic junk systems, which they defend to the death for some INSANE reason!

Thank you for your suggested method of attaching tps on throttle pedal, I think that will be much easier than under the bonnet.

I have attached a picture of the bottle connector as it looks like I will be replacing most everything else, including the the feed pipe which is currently braided line.
A common 4 AN bottle nut. An adapter is available for that (I'm pretty sure that it's included in the upgrade kit).

Looking at the NOS to WON upgrade kit, the only things I will be using from my current kit will be wiring, switches and bottle.
Correct.

The system I have acquired, had the injector inserted into inlet pipe between the air filter and throttle body.
Even better that you found us, since single "fogger" nozzles are totally inadequate for single point use.

One other thing, I have traction control or ESP (Citroen), as I understand it it cuts power if wheel-spin is detected. I think this is done by ignition and assume this could be and issue if Nos is being injected at the time, will I need to disable it?
You will need to disable such systems so that it does not interfere with the nitrous system when activated, or else damage could result from the ECU doing something unfavorable.I disable such things on all of my vehicles anyway because I find that they interfere too much, even when driving normally.

Thanks again, Adrian.
Anytime.

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Turbobox

Post subject: Re: Newbee

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 1:32 am

Wizard

Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:13 pm
Posts: 1004
Location: Orlando, Fl in 'Merrrrica!

Goyle wrote:

Hello and Welcome to the forum... you have certainly come to the right place.

I bought a WON nitrous system a few months a go, and the help and advice on this forum was invaluable to get me up and running.
It was a fun adventure! LOL

im running a fixed 40 shot on a 2009 fiesta zetec s, and im a complete WON nitrous junky now :twisted:

I'm sure you still grin ear-to-ear when on the gas!

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madbsc

Post subject: Re: Newbee

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:40 am

Newbie

Joined: Mon Aug 29, 2016 8:46 pm
Posts: 4

Hi thanks for the advice, I think I'm nearly there. I'm building a bit of a wish list of bits that I will need to get me going.

For every question I get answered more pop into my head.

I have just been looking at your refill agents and found one a short distance away, reading their notes on refills there is a quote about connection type being Dash 4, and they only have adapters for M8 and M10. I think you had said previously I have 4 AN bottle nut that can be adapted to 5 mm. However, it looks like the 4 AN bit can be removed from the valve leaving a 26mm O/D thread, but not knowing what Dash 4 is I just don't know if I can get it connected to their refill station. Could you advise?

I have been looking at my bottle and the bottle valve is loose, is there a torque setting that should be applied, also I read somewhere about Teflon washers, is this relating to bottle valve? I don't want to over-tighten, but I am conscious of the high pressures involved and don't want a leak.

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Turbobox

Post subject: Re: Newbee

Posted: Thu Sep 15, 2016 11:58 am

Wizard

Joined: Sat Mar 21, 2015 8:13 pm
Posts: 1004
Location: Orlando, Fl in 'Merrrrica!

madbsc wrote:

Hi thanks for the advice, I think I'm nearly there. I'm building a bit of a wish list of bits that I will need to get me going.

For every question I get answered more pop into my head.
A natural occurrence LOL.

I have just been looking at your refill agents and found one a short distance away, reading their notes on refills there is a quote about connection type being Dash 4, and they only have adapters for M8 and M10. I think you had said previously I have 4 AN bottle nut that can be adapted to 5 mm. However, it looks like the 4 AN bit can be removed from the valve leaving a 26mm O/D thread, but not knowing what Dash 4 is I just don't know if I can get it connected to their refill station. Could you advise?
The dash 4 they are talking about is the same as the bottle nut. Either way, you can purchase an adapter from WoN to match their fittings.

I have been looking at my bottle and the bottle valve is loose, is there a torque setting that should be applied, also I read somewhere about Teflon washers, is this relating to bottle valve? I don't want to over-tighten, but I am conscious of the high pressures involved and don't want a leak.
In that case, I would STRONGLY advise to just replace the bottle valve as that valve is fragile as it is and we've seen cases where the valve stem breaks off leaving the nitrous to escape OR become trapped inside the bottle rendering it useless. It's a GOOD thing to be conscious of dealing with high pressures and FREEZING temperatures, which is why we make strong recommendations for SUPERIOR components that are otherwise dismissed by everyone else. WoN bottle valves are INDESTRUCTIBLE and made of BILLET ALLOY, or better yet simply sell that bottle (and the rest of the kit) and just get a whole WoN system; it's SAFER and CHEAPER in the long run as you'll have to sell or junk that bottle anyway when the valve fails. It's only 97 pounds extra from the upgrade kit with the bottle valve option and you get stainless steel brackets.

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