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 Post subject: Re: NOS to WON kit: INSTALLED! Chevrolet Sonic 1.4T
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 10:36 pm 
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Turbobox wrote:
This is the farthest I've ever really gone on nitrous because with the US JUNK I had it would have either A) fail to deliver the correct performance (as WON has FAR exceeded that of the old NOS kit) or B) blown some part of the engine by now. The fact is that only now I am realizing how to overcome certain weaknesses and situations that need to be strengthened in order to make power. I've never come across having ignition issues like this before (even on other turbo cars) and having both boost and nitrous is taking me into new levels of "WTF?".
That's because we deliver nitrous at MAX density unlike ALL other companies and because a stock turbo can only enhance top end power and has very little effect on low and mid range torque.

So be that as it may, if my issue DOES disappear, then I'll simply sell the amp box or save it for when I experience further problems.
If it's a good product that works, you'll have an application and/or a market for it before too long. :yes:


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 Post subject: Re: NOS to WON kit: INSTALLED! Chevrolet Sonic 1.4T
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 11:33 pm 
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Agreed although I'd go one further and say the ONLY plug leads worth buying are Magnecor, which is one US brand motor product that is the best in the world. :yes:

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 Post subject: Re: NOS to WON kit: INSTALLED! Chevrolet Sonic 1.4T
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 11:35 pm 
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Noswizard wrote:
If it's a good product that works, you'll have an application and/or a market for it before too long. :yes:

I hope it works. I just got back from another test and it STILL breaks up on top albeit the limit moved up by another 500 rpm and ONLY if I hit it at 3k and with a 50% starting ramp up. Any trigger before then and the car gets weak and breaks up earlier. All I can say is that it DOES feel really good when it's not bitching and I KNOW that I'm leaving plenty on the table if I can only get this weak spark problem to go away.

BTW I bought some brass screws to see if I can help increase conductivity between the coils and the spark plug terminals. I feel like when you are left holding the bag with shit, YOU'RE LEFT HOLDING A BIG BAG OF SHIT. :pukeleft:


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 Post subject: Re: NOS to WON kit: INSTALLED! Chevrolet Sonic 1.4T
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 11:37 pm 
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BTW this is what my coil pack looks like:

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 Post subject: Re: NOS to WON kit: INSTALLED! Chevrolet Sonic 1.4T
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 11:39 pm 
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The good thing about extensive struggling to succeed, is that you have a greater potential to learn more. :idea: :yes:

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 Post subject: Re: NOS to WON kit: INSTALLED! Chevrolet Sonic 1.4T
PostPosted: Thu May 26, 2016 11:51 pm 
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Noswizard wrote:
The good thing about extensive struggling to succeed, is that you have a greater potential to learn more. :idea: :yes:

For sure.




I just reviewed the footage and it seems like the breakup point hasn't moved any from before, even though it seems that way. I can't rely on any internet info for my problem as there is SO much BS that people spout out on forums that there is NO REAL information out there to help me solve this. I'm really banking on this amp working for me.

P.S.

Here is a graph comparing the 3 runs for TODAY May 27. All runs start at 50% with a 2 second ramp up.

One was the nitrous engaged early which brought the torque higher than the other two that were engaged at 3k, and it also ended early because it broke up earlier. Logically, the torque of the early hit should continue to tower over the other two for a while until they intersect after the other two runs achieve 100% on the ramp.

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Here is the other comparo with the two similar 50 runs done today, and the 25 run that was done a couple of weeks ago. See any real difference? Because I sure don't :cry: the 25 hit had MORE torque because that was activated at 2k rather than 3k like the 50 runs.

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Last edited by Turbobox on Fri May 27, 2016 12:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: NOS to WON kit: INSTALLED! Chevrolet Sonic 1.4T
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 12:12 am 
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I doubt the Amp will fix the misfire.

1) How many sets of plugs have you used/tried while suffering this MISFIRE?

2) Have you measured the resistance of each individual coil, if not please do so and report back to me?

3) Measure the resistance of the HT spring connection components

4) Have you checked all wires and connection relating to the ignition system - electrical components (including wire itself), do not last long when subjected to heat and a turbo pumps out more heat than NA motors - most ignition misfires are due to simple electrical failures, like broken wires.

Here's a perfect example; the V12 Jag that we were given to work on for the TV Program Top Gear, suffered from random misfires and I eventually tracked it down to the 2 Siamesed wires that connected the distributor to the ignition pack. The heat had made the wire insulation hard and brittle and it had cracked HALF WAY THROUGH. The constant flexing of the hard insulation either side of the crack, eventually cracked the wire conductors and the flexing caused the conductivity of the wire to break intermittently. Luckily I managed to locate the problem MINUTES before we were due to race and I put in a temp fix, otherwise these historic vids wouldn't have been possible;

http://www.noswizard.com/videos/TopGearJagOrig.wmv

http://www.noswizard.com/videos/OurJagEdited_0001.wmv

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 Post subject: Re: NOS to WON kit: INSTALLED! Chevrolet Sonic 1.4T
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 2:27 am 
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Noswizard wrote:
Agreed although I'd go one further and say the ONLY plug leads worth buying are Magnecor, which is one US brand motor product that is the best in the world. :yes:


exactly what i have fitted on my fiesta :yes:

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 Post subject: Re: NOS to WON kit: INSTALLED! Chevrolet Sonic 1.4T
PostPosted: Fri May 27, 2016 11:14 am 
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:yes:

Just realised that Alex doesn't need any HT leads as his coils are directly over the plugs. The coil springs/wires are effectively the HT leads on his car.

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 Post subject: Re: NOS to WON kit: INSTALLED! Chevrolet Sonic 1.4T
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 9:43 pm 
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Noswizard wrote:
I doubt the Amp will fix the misfire.

1) How many sets of plugs have you used/tried while suffering this MISFIRE?

I've been through 3 sets of plugs. All gapped at 0.018" by this time.

2) Have you measured the resistance of each individual coil, if not please do so and report back to me?

The coil pack is somewhat unorthodox, but the secondary coils ALL have 12k ohms and the primary was about 5.5k ohms (if I recall, it's been a couple of days already).

3) Measure the resistance of the HT spring connection components

I performed a cheap mod to improve the contact points of the leads with brass that both improve the spring pressure of the leads as well as improve the overall contact areas of each end of each lead.

4) Have you checked all wires and connection relating to the ignition system - electrical components (including wire itself), do not last long when subjected to heat and a turbo pumps out more heat than NA motors - most ignition misfires are due to simple electrical failures, like broken wires.

The only electrical wiring is from the engine harness and it checks out fine.




I did find a boost leak and rectified it, which resulted in better power but it still chokes off and misfires @ 5- 5.5k rpm. The engine itself is fine with EXCELLENT compression values within 5% of the min/max.


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 Post subject: Re: NOS to WON kit: INSTALLED! Chevrolet Sonic 1.4T
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 10:08 pm 
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ANOTHER possible cause is that the intake runners each contain a RESTRICTION with the purpose of creating turbulence of the air for improved fuel/air mixing at low speeds (my guess is to achieve the best fuel economy possible at the time). Porting of the intake manifold is a common modification on the 1.4 turbo with many reports of improved performance with data performed by speed shops (swapping manifolds each time), and there is a clear benefit of removing these "walls" in the runners. Reports also stated that most of the improvement occurs SPECIFICALLY beyond 5,500 RPM.

My suspicion is that the restriction is limiting the flow into the engine and the higher the rpm, the worse the power drop off. On top of all that, the nitrous mix must also pass that point and that the mixture in the combustion chamber could be just too rich for the stock ignition to light off the charge since the majority of the air is behind the wall and the fuel injection point is after it.

I may try to track down an intake manifold in the scrap yard to port and test it.

If that doesn't work, then there is another modification (free to do) that could help, which has to do with the computer venting off boost pressure in order to regulate torque output.

So I still have some work to do to achieve the ULTIMATE economy car street basher!

I AM DETERMINED!!!

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 Post subject: Re: NOS to WON kit: INSTALLED! Chevrolet Sonic 1.4T
PostPosted: Sun May 29, 2016 11:13 pm 
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The restriction is nasty but I doubt that's the cause of the misfire.

I've never heard of a primary coil firing secondary coils, so I've no idea how to check such an arrangement. I can't even imagine how that could work, as the primary coil would have to fire ALL 4 secondary coils at the same time and although I know that's possible, I'm surprised any OEM uses it.
I guess it must have a primary HT lead between the primary coil and the secondary coil pack, so have you measured the resistance of that???

Unless my memory has gone to hell, those values of 5.5K & 12K are EXTREMELY HIGH compared to the values I'm used to working with, so where are you measuring those?

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 Post subject: Re: NOS to WON kit: INSTALLED! Chevrolet Sonic 1.4T
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 12:19 am 
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Noswizard wrote:
The restriction is nasty but I doubt that's the cause of the misfire.

I'm only looking at ALL aspects of this issue.

I've never heard of a primary coil firing secondary coils, so I've no idea how to check such an arrangement. I can't even imagine how that could work, as the primary coil would have to fire ALL 4 secondary coils at the same time and although I know that's possible, I'm surprised any OEM uses it.
I guess it must have a primary HT lead between the primary coil and the secondary coil pack, so have you measured the resistance of that???

Unless my memory has gone to hell, those values of 5.5K & 12K are EXTREMELY HIGH compared to the values I'm used to working with, so where are you measuring those?

There is only ONE primary circuit throughout the entire assembly (one 12v positive and 1 earth; there is also another wire called the low reference that is used as a "secondary" earth and also goes back to the computer module) and there are an additional 4 trigger wires that ground each coil's transistor to collapse the field and fire that particular coil.The secondary coils seem to be paralleled to each other. How they make it work in depth, I have NO CLUE and there is NO schematic of this coil in ANY service manual (it must be DELPHI's thing).

I just realized that my ohmmeter was NOT calibrated during my tests and I'm rusty on using it as I'm used to digital but that one is MIA. I recalibrated the analog unit and went to measure the primary (it's raining right now so I couldn't do the secondaries) and I got 8 ohms out of it on the primary. I'll get back to you on the secondary with the recal.




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 Post subject: Re: NOS to WON kit: INSTALLED! Chevrolet Sonic 1.4T
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 1:07 am 
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I'm going to try a NEW coil unit in the end because I found a healthy number of information regarding defective/prematurely failing coils on these engines. I will also make note of the resitance values of the new unit and compare them to the current one to see if it is really out of whack. There is NO info regarding resistance values for this coil. :cry: :cry:


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 Post subject: Re: NOS to WON kit: INSTALLED! Chevrolet Sonic 1.4T
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 2:05 am 
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Turbobox wrote:
I'm going to try a NEW coil unit in the end because I found a healthy number of information regarding defective/prematurely failing coils on these engines. I will also make note of the resitance values of the new unit and compare them to the current one to see if it is really out of whack. There is NO info regarding resistance values for this coil. :cry: :cry:

I'd say that was a wise move. :yes:

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 Post subject: Re: NOS to WON kit: INSTALLED! Chevrolet Sonic 1.4T
PostPosted: Mon May 30, 2016 2:23 am 
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Let's hope we can eclipse a healthy ~230 lb ft peak & 210 lb ft average torque with nothing but fuel straight from the pump. That would prove that nitrous can make comparable performance (aka better and CHEAPER) to other similar setups consisting of upgraded injectors, E85, endless tunes, expensive exhaust kits, and COSTLY turbo upgrades that barely yield any extra power: mods that typically sacrifice economy and reliability by a GREAT DEAL! :yes:


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 Post subject: Re: NOS to WON kit: INSTALLED! Chevrolet Sonic 1.4T
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 8:59 pm 
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No updates for the moment except that I did recieve the new, updated part for the ignition coil pack and the boost-a-spark. I compared the values between the new coil and the old one and there isn't much diffference at all in the resistance values. However, I did discover, after performing my own electrical detective work, that the coil 12v positive SHARES power with the fuel injectors. That's right, the fuel injectors are also tied into the coil pack's power, which means that they both are working hard at high rpm, high boost, and nitrous.

In the spirit of troubleshooting, I'll go for a test run with the new coil pack ONLY and see if it misfires or not. If not, I can try the boost a spark module.


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 Post subject: Re: NOS to WON kit: INSTALLED! Chevrolet Sonic 1.4T
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 9:24 pm 
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Turbobox wrote:
No updates for the moment except that I did recieve the new, updated part for the ignition coil pack and the boost-a-spark. I compared the values between the new coil and the old one and there isn't much diffference at all in the resistance values. However, I did discover, after performing my own electrical detective work, that the coil 12v positive SHARES power with the fuel injectors. That's right, the fuel injectors are also tied into the coil pack's power, which means that they both are working hard at high rpm, high boost, and nitrous.
That is ridiculous

In the spirit of troubleshooting, I'll go for a test run with the new coil pack ONLY and see if it misfires or not. If not, I can try the boost a spark module.
The way to go!!! :yes:


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 Post subject: Re: NOS to WON kit: INSTALLED! Chevrolet Sonic 1.4T
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 10:22 pm 
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Noswizard wrote:
Turbobox wrote:
No updates for the moment except that I did recieve the new, updated part for the ignition coil pack and the boost-a-spark. I compared the values between the new coil and the old one and there isn't much diffference at all in the resistance values. However, I did discover, after performing my own electrical detective work, that the coil 12v positive SHARES power with the fuel injectors. That's right, the fuel injectors are also tied into the coil pack's power, which means that they both are working hard at high rpm, high boost, and nitrous.
That is ridiculous

no kidding! It's even spelled out on the fuse/relay diagram but i wanted to do the work and see if it was true. I suppose the company never thought anyone would performance tune this car :omgrofl:

I also went through the electrical system and removed ANY corrosion from all battery terminals to ensure that wherever that power comes from, it won't fade under high power.


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 Post subject: Re: NOS to WON kit: INSTALLED! Chevrolet Sonic 1.4T
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 10:38 pm 
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If you haven't already done so (which you probably have), I'd also make sure that the Pulsoids don't get a feed from the same source.

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 Post subject: Re: NOS to WON kit: INSTALLED! Chevrolet Sonic 1.4T
PostPosted: Fri Jun 03, 2016 11:48 pm 
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Noswizard wrote:
If you haven't already done so (which you probably have), I'd also make sure that the Pulsoids don't get a feed from the same source.

No, they have their own dedicated power feed.




I tested the car again with the same result. I'm also going to (for the sake of testing ALL of the variables) do a fuel injector flow and spray pattern test to make sure that all injectors are firing equally. When I road tested the jetting, the plugs were all even and in excellent shape. If I'm satisfied that they are ok, then I'll move on with the amp box. I'm also going to check boost pressure to see if the car is taking boost away with the power increase, these modern ECU's are such dicks when it comes to limiting power.


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 Post subject: Re: NOS to WON kit: INSTALLED! Chevrolet Sonic 1.4T
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 11:01 am 
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Can't wait for you to discover what the cause of the problem is and to experience the full power it should unleash.

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 Post subject: Re: NOS to WON kit: INSTALLED! Chevrolet Sonic 1.4T
PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2016 3:10 pm 
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I have been reading your updates, but didnt really have anything to add...

but im eagerly awaiting the out come of the ignition amplifier :yes:

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 Post subject: Re: NOS to WON kit: INSTALLED! Chevrolet Sonic 1.4T
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:05 pm 
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The problem is found. :redface:


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 Post subject: Re: NOS to WON kit: INSTALLED! Chevrolet Sonic 1.4T
PostPosted: Tue Jun 07, 2016 8:29 pm 
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You can't just leave it at that, you'll have to complete what sounds like it's going to be a confession!!!! :beatstick:

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