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 Post subject: SEAT Ibiza 1.6 Sport with WON SB150i
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 10:46 am 
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Hi Everyone.

After much deliberation and research I finally bit the bullet and ordered my WON Street Blaster 150i, 11kg bottle, TPS, purge kit and Minimax Controller.

It all arrived yesterday, so hopefully by the weekend I'll be up and running.

I have a question for those with more experience:

Is there a rule of thumb that says by how much one can safely increase the power of a stock engine without modifying the internals?

I'll be fitting this to my 2008 SEAT Ibiza 1.6 Sport. So far (engine-wise) I've fitted a K&N induction system, custom sports exhaust and remap. OEM power is 105hp and I calculate she is giving me about 115-118hp right now.

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 Post subject: Re: SEAT Ibiza 1.6 Sport with WON SB150i
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 11:10 am 
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Before I commit to anything, does anybody have any comments on the positioning I have planned for the pulsoids and injector?

Good or bad?

Thanks in advance.


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 Post subject: Re: SEAT Ibiza 1.6 Sport with WON SB150i
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:12 pm 
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That would work Mark but you'd get better results if you act on the following advice;
1) If there is enough room the Pulsoids would be better in the scuttle with the wiper motor etc.
2) Either move that filter to the front of the car and feed the COLD air from there back to the engine via the original hose or ditched that filter and re-fit the original air induction system with a K&N replacement filter screen in the original box, as that will improve both on and off gas performance. The way you have it now means the engine will be fed with HOT (expanded) air, which will reduce the maximum power such a filter could add, if fed with COLD (DENSE) air.

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 Post subject: Re: SEAT Ibiza 1.6 Sport with WON SB150i
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 12:13 pm 
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Also forgot to mention that if you carry out the induction mod, the Crossfire can more easily be fitted in to the hose as it connects to the TB

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 Post subject: Re: SEAT Ibiza 1.6 Sport with WON SB150i
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 1:43 pm 
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Hi Trevor

Thanks for getting back to me so promptly.

As a pilot, I know exactly what you mean about the higher temp affecting the performance :yes:

By my calculations, on a typical day (ISA) an extra 30 deg under the bonnet will cost me almost exactly 5% power :cry:

Fortunately, as long as I'm moving, the under bonnet temperature in my car is rarely anywhere near 10 deg above ambient.

So, although I lose a little in engine performance by not taking the cold air directly, the trade off is I get to keep the engine bay cooler as a whole which can't be bad for the electronics and the battery etc.

Can't wait for the weekend to get installing.

Once again, thanks for getting back to me, your input and advice is much appreciated. I'll probably have more questions as I progress.

Oh one more thing: how far do think it wise to push a standard engine, with no internal mods, above the OEM hp? I know all engines will be different but I just want to get a rough idea of how far I can reasonably push mine before I should consider beefing things up internally.

PS. I think I'll order your book :yes:

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 Post subject: Re: SEAT Ibiza 1.6 Sport with WON SB150i
PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2014 7:48 pm 
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I believe Seat engines are basically Golf engines with a different badge and if that's the case, they are generally very strong. The good thing is that our systems are extremely effective, so most people are more than happy with much less than they anticipate needing.

Other important factors are;
1) Progressive delivery is kinder on the whole car than fixed delivery
2) The higher the rpm you use it the less load it applies per cycle but lower rpm use is more effective

Wise move to purchase the book, especially as they are out of print now and will be sold out soon.

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 Post subject: Re: SEAT Ibiza 1.6 Sport with WON SB150i
PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2014 2:08 pm 
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Well, all the plumbing's done. Now the tricky bit!

How to get the wiring from the Minimax and arming switch into the engine bay. Has anyone got any tips?

There must be an easier way than ripping out most of the facia?

My current thought is to just drill through the bulkhead and put a grommet in. Is this the best way or am I missing a trick.

I went underneath the car from the boot for the Nitrous feed line.

Any help will be most appreciated. Cheers.

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 Post subject: Re: SEAT Ibiza 1.6 Sport with WON SB150i
PostPosted: Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:27 am 
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Success. I found a grommet in the passenger footwell. Perfectly placed.

Wiring should be straightforward from now on.

Bottle's filled already, so I should be running soon :yes:

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 Post subject: Re: SEAT Ibiza 1.6 Sport with WON SB150i
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 6:43 am 
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Well the gear all went in smoothly, leak test performed (not a squeak). I'm very impressed with the quality and fit of the components.

Electrics all hooked up and worked first time.

Static test, went by the book.

Using the Minimax on gentle settings to begin with the road test went perfectly.

I haven't pulled the plugs yet but that's on the cards for today's testing.

Looking forward to ramping up the power :yes:

Trevor, you've got a great product here (but you know that already :lol: )

Cheers.

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 Post subject: Re: SEAT Ibiza 1.6 Sport with WON SB150i
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:14 am 
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marky mark wrote:
Quote:
Well, all the plumbing's done. Now the tricky bit!

How to get the wiring from the Minimax and arming switch into the engine bay. Has anyone got any tips?

There must be an easier way than ripping out most of the facia?

My current thought is to just drill through the bulkhead and put a grommet in. Is this the best way or am I missing a trick.

Sorry for the belated reply but glad you found a simple solution as stated in your next post.

Quote:
I went underneath the car from the boot for the Nitrous feed line.

Unless you are using braided hose (which I doubt) and even if you are, it should be routed INSIDE the car to protect it from heat, that will vaporise the liquid in to gas and produce EXTREMELY BAD results. If it's unavoidable to route it outside, it would be MUCH BETTER to insulate it as much as possible.



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 Post subject: Re: SEAT Ibiza 1.6 Sport with WON SB150i
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:16 am 
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marky mark wrote:
Quote:
Well the gear all went in smoothly, leak test performed (not a squeak). I'm very impressed with the quality and fit of the components.

Electrics all hooked up and worked first time.

Static test, went by the book.

Using the Minimax on gentle settings to begin with the road test went perfectly.

I haven't pulled the plugs yet but that's on the cards for today's testing.

Looking forward to ramping up the power :yes:

Glad to hear all went well but the road test results will be even better when you act on my advice in the previous post. :yes:

Quote:
Trevor, you've got a great product here (but you know that already :lol: )

Always nice to have that appreciated. :)


Cheers.

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 Post subject: Re: SEAT Ibiza 1.6 Sport with WON SB150i
PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2014 11:46 am 
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Noswizard wrote:
Quote:
I went underneath the car from the boot for the Nitrous feed line.

Unless you are using braided hose (which I doubt) and even if you are, it should be routed INSIDE the car to protect it from heat, that will vaporise the liquid in to gas and produce EXTREMELY BAD results. If it's unavoidable to route it outside, it would be MUCH BETTER to insulate it as much as possible.




Ok, I routed it that way as it was easier and I thought it would be cooler on the outside rather than inside the car (unless I have the aircon turned right up). Is that not the case in practice? I'm using the standard nylon line btw.

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 Post subject: Re: SEAT Ibiza 1.6 Sport with WON SB150i
PostPosted: Tue Sep 23, 2014 9:35 am 
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Update.

I have measured the temperatures with a thermocouple on the drive to work this morning.

Inside the car, under the sill moulding (the recommended route for the nitrous feed line) the temperature was 21 deg C.

Outside the car, between the floor pan and the under tray (where I have routed the feed) the temperature was 16 deg C.

Am I missing something? If the idea is to keep the line cool then what overriding advantage is there in fitting it inside the car?

Assumption: On a very hot day (not that we get many of those in the UK) the temperature inside the car will be even hotter especially in the sunshine. I can see that the temperature inside the car will eventually cool down once the aircon has had a chance to do it's job. But with an interior feed line insulated by the carpet and sill moulding, it would take a long time for the cooling effect to reach it. Whereas an external line would get the benefit of ambient temperature immediately.

This is an assumption I will have to wait until summer to test.

Please enlighten me if I have missed something. Cheers.

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 Post subject: Re: SEAT Ibiza 1.6 Sport with WON SB150i
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 7:16 am 
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Right ho, I think I've worked it out.

Although, on the face of it (to me at least), locating the nitrous feed line in the coolest spot (underneath the car) would seem preferable to routing it inside the relatively hot car, it is wrong for the following reasons.

It's all to do with RELATIVE temp. difference.

Underneath the car, the feed line is sitting in MOVING air at say 15 deg C

Inside the car, the line is sitting in NON-MOVING air and in-between (therefore insulated by) carpet and sound deadening material at say 25 deg C

So, with the first blast of Nitrous, the line under the car will give the best performance.

BUT after the initial burst of nitrous or purge, the line cools down to a very low temperature.

After a couple of shots, the line inside the car that started out in the warm will have cooled its environment down to the same very low temperature and further shots will benefit from this, improving commensurately.

On the other hand, the line underneath the car is being fed by a fast moving current of air and will always be sitting in an ambient temp of 15 deg C. Therefore every shot will be starting with the same conditions as the first. Therefore no improvement.

It is the insulation that is the key here exactly as Trevor suggested. But not so much to protect it from possible heat sources, more to maintain the cold temperature the nitrous produces and to stop it from radiating away.

Trever, let me know if I'm on the right track, Cheers :yes:

To prove the hypothesis above, todays experiment: To measure the temp of the feed line itself in two positions. 1. Inside the car where it's insulated but starts out warm. 2. Underneath the car in moving air where it start out colder.

We'll then see which position attains the lowest temperature and maintains it the longest.

PS. Once I've got some suitable insulation I will be applying it to my line underneath the car, between the under tray and floor pan. That way my starting temp will be lower than an internal line.

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 Post subject: Re: SEAT Ibiza 1.6 Sport with WON SB150i
PostPosted: Wed Sep 24, 2014 5:48 pm 
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Blimey mark
have you ever thought you can over think things... :shock:

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 Post subject: Re: SEAT Ibiza 1.6 Sport with WON SB150i
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 8:10 am 
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All the time Ted, all the time :?

I'm a chemical and process engineer by trade, so this type of thing is second nature.

I just can't help needing to know why and how things work.

I'm doing this as a science project with my kids (definitely not a mid life crisis, that's my excuse anyway lol ;) )

Cheers :yes:

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 Post subject: Re: SEAT Ibiza 1.6 Sport with WON SB150i
PostPosted: Thu Sep 25, 2014 9:42 pm 
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I think you and trev will get on great... ;)

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