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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:00 pm 
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sab wrote:
300bhp/ton wrote:
sab wrote:
Ron sir... you need to come down Enfi3ld (A10) when your car is up and running if you want to play... There's so many talkers... you gotta hear the bullsh!t... unbelievable honestly... I just dispatched a 330ci who's owner had the biggest mouth known to man. I kindly just smiled and waved... :lol:

I'm not too far from Enfield, might have to pop over some time. What sort of ride do you have?


Me I got a civic 1.4i for my daily driver, a honda prelude (which has just been sold now and I is going tommorow :cry: ...),

...and a JDM 350z in black! :evil: Thats my nightrider! :)

Will hopefully be juiced up next week... can't wait! :P

What about you dude; what you got?

Just a lil' 5.7 V8 Fbody :D :D :D :D

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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 10:14 pm 
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IS that in the form of some american muscle then?? :)


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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 11:00 pm 
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^^^ yep, looks like a Camaro, by the looks of his sig :)

but c'mon guys, let's not thread hi-jack now... :beatstick:


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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:16 am 
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My thoughts on the whole debate is the following...

For me, Nitrous cannot be regarded as a serious form of tuning as it isn't designed for any particular make or model but for the internal combustion engine itself. I can only see the uses of nitrous as more of an add-on fun thing which one does in addition to conventional tuning... I mean how many racing teams use nitrous as part of their car prep?

When one starts to tune the car in n/a form, there are a number of advantages, the main being that the power is always there... If you're running a absurdly high shot of nos (e.g. 3 - 400), how long will that last? At most possibly a minute? What use is that if you want to use it on a track? There are also benefits to n/a tuning... one does really get a real personal satisfaction knowing that you've extracted more power without cheating (i.e. FI), and it can change the character of the car also without it being schizophrenic (as it is with nos :lol: )

Ofcourse there are cases in which nitrous is a very good option... For example some n/a engines are relatively untunable, e.g. my VQ35DE engine... ->Without spending ludicrous amounts of money. It is like drawing blood from a stone I tell you. Other cars I wouldn't think to take nitrous anywhere near.. e.g. the FQ400 (400bhp from a 2.0 engine!!), or a p1 for example which has a short lifespan as it is.

I think nitrous has to be considered on a case by case basis. With the growing number of inherently weaker engines coming to market (my VQ35DE included), the use of large shots of nitrous will be an even bigger concern.

Awaits flame... :redface:


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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 1:34 am 
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oh dear...


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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 7:43 am 
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sab wrote:
My thoughts on the whole debate is the following...

For me, Nitrous cannot be regarded as a serious form of tuning as it isn't designed for any particular make or model but for the internal combustion engine itself.

Is that not true of pretty much anything. A cam is just a metal shaft with pre-designed lobes. The same lobes will then be used on cams for other engines, just the shaft and sprocket will be different.

Is a k&n induction kit really purposely made for only one vehicle, or do they use the same filter and associated components for a 100 different models?

sab wrote:
I can only see the uses of nitrous as more of an add-on fun thing which one does in addition to conventional tuning... I mean how many racing teams use nitrous as part of their car prep?

I think it depends highly on the nature of the motor sport the race team competes. these all use nitrous as part of the car prep:

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sab wrote:
When one starts to tune the car in n/a form, there are a number of advantages, the main being that the power is always there... If you're running a absurdly high shot of nos (e.g. 3 - 400), how long will that last? At most possibly a minute? What use is that if you want to use it on a track?

I agree n/a tuning should not be forgotten, although depending on engine and application it carries different merits. Take the Ls1 in my car, it's fairly easy to chuck some bolt on's at it with a sensible cam and some budget heads and take it from ~350hp to 450hp and retain streetability and mpg. Other engines like the Jaguar V12 cost far too many ££££ for the somewhat limited gains so n/a tuning is largely a waste.

sab wrote:
There are also benefits to n/a tuning... one does really get a real personal satisfaction knowing that you've extracted more power without cheating (i.e. FI),

I can't understand this view that using a power adder is cheating.... :beatstick: :beatstick: :beatstick:

Does that mean that anyone n/a tuning a DOHC over a OHV is also cheating because of greater breathing ability offered by multivalve setups?

sab wrote:
Ofcourse there are cases in which nitrous is a very good option... For example some n/a engines are relatively untunable, e.g. my VQ35DE engine... ->Without spending ludicrous amounts of money. It is like drawing blood from a stone I tell you.

I can't really see any reason why nitrous would not be a viable option unless limited by some sort of motor sports regulatory body.

I guess the only reason would be if you had a vehicle already deemed quick enough for its use. Example a built and ProCharged LS1, even at 346ci can still produce an everyday 700rwhp. For a street car thats probably enough, although nitrous would only enhance it further. :D

sab wrote:
Other cars I wouldn't think to take nitrous anywhere near.. e.g. the FQ400 (400bhp from a 2.0 engine!!), or a p1 for example which has a short lifespan as it is.

Nitrous will still do it's job = make more power. The fact that these engines in this trim may not be strong eough built is not a fault of nitrous. BTW - there are guys in the US running Evo's at 2.3 litres and over 600whp.

sab wrote:
I think nitrous has to be considered on a case by case basis.

Yep so do I :)

If you want to go fast - reach for the nitrous :beatstick: :rofl:

sab wrote:
With the growing number of inherently weaker engines coming to market (my VQ35DE included), the use of large shots of nitrous will be an even bigger concern.

Awaits flame... :redface:

Weaker engines?

Lets see a 2.0 DOHC Ford 4 pot nowadays will happily make 240bhp n/a. Try attaining that from one of the old cross flow units. Add nitrous and the old motor stands no chance.

I think new engines are taking the older ones by storm:

-Chevy LSx series of engines
-Ford mod V8's
-Dodge Hemi's
-Dodge V10
-Cummins 5.9
-most of the modern 4 pots
-all Common Rail diesels
-Jaguar V8

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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Fri Apr 25, 2008 2:40 pm 
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ive just bought a mondeo with a ford zetec-e 18i 16v engine
in standard trim it makes 115bhp, with £1000 it can have weber alpha throttle bodies and ecu fitted this takes it to 150bhp
now for the 1970s pinto at 2.0litres you have 90bhp and it needed cams, exhaust, twin webers, ignition mods to get near 150bhp
with all that extra stuff on the zetec you get near 200bhp
the engine has forged pistons to start with and only need steel rods to rev to 8500rpms
like said, 240bhp isnt impossible out of a zetec
try getting that out of a pinto or even a BDA!

i still love my old essex v6 with its crappy 140bhp stock power, but 190lbs tq is where its at
any engine that can pull 1200kg along at idle in 4th gear is sweet by me 8)
was tempted by the cosworth v6 though :D
end of the day, theres no replacement for displacement ;)

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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 4:13 pm 
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wow ^^^

i never knew the zetec motor had so much potential!!

might have to do some googling on it!


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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Tue Sep 09, 2008 10:17 pm 
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How did I miss that post by Sab, thankfully it was dealt with very well without my input.

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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 3:55 am 
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...I've got to admit, I was a bit surprised by your absense from the thread after he posted!! :P


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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Wed Sep 10, 2008 11:38 am 
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Thankfully 300bhp/ton did an excellent job of making sabs opinion look at best ill informed and at worst plain stupid, so its good to see my input was not needed. :yes:

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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Thu Sep 11, 2008 8:09 am 
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Im mainly into fast road cars, where due to the amount of time you spend at WOT in a week potentially, relying on nitrous alone would prove expensive, so I tend to go for a bit of conventional tuning thats enough to get me up and down a country lane quickly or whatever, and then nitrous for putting me into my seat on a dual carriageway.

So to me its about using both together, not one or the other.

For the drag strip though, or any other short WOT application, nitrous wins hands down!

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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:17 pm 
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sab wrote:
There are also benefits to n/a tuning... one does really get a real personal satisfaction knowing that you've extracted more power without cheating (i.e. FI), and it can change the character of the car also without it being schizophrenic (as it is with nos :lol: )


Guess this guy never got round to riding a race tuned 250LC then eh?? Makes my nitrous burning drag bike feel placid in comparison!!

Oddly enough, all the negativety surrounding nitrous, harmfull to engines, uncontrollable, seems to frequently come from ppl who not only think its good to use crap gear but also seem to think its ok to add 100hp to their engine and not appreciate the need to have a sorted chassis and suspension to cope!!
Any form of tuning, no matter whether nitrous, turbo or n/a is only a part of the overall package. All road going vehicles are a compromise between comfort and performance to some extent, so even a fast street car/bike benefits from uprated suspension and improved braking, yet alone shedding unnecessary weight, start adding power and the compromises start becoming highlighted. But very often its the nitrous that gets blamed

Steve

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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Sat Nov 14, 2009 11:41 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 7:47 pm 
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Advantage one of N/A tuning:

Decats and ITBs weigh less than an 11lb bottle, and in most cases ( like those stated ) are even lighter than original parts.

Advantage two of N/A tuning:

Any amount of cams and manifold mods will ALWAYS be cheaper to insure than nitrous on UK roads! Yes i know most of you have race cars with trailers and tow trucks but for enthusiasts like me insurance is a serious consideration of the path you take.

Some could also argue its more reliable too but i dare not suggest that... :beatstick:


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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Tue Jun 26, 2012 8:42 pm 
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ben_r1 wrote:
Advantage one of N/A tuning:

Decats and ITBs weigh less than an 11lb bottle, and in most cases ( like those stated ) are even lighter than original parts.
That may well be true but they don't delivery anywhere near the same performance gains, plus on most vehicles they cost substantially more.

Advantage two of N/A tuning:

Any amount of cams and manifold mods will ALWAYS be cheaper to insure than nitrous on UK roads!
NOT TRUE as we've had MANY customers report their premiums were lower (plus a good number more have reported minimal increases), after nitrous was added and the insurer switched. Now that may not be the majority but it certainly proves that statement is incorrect.

Some could also argue its more reliable too but i dare not suggest that... :beatstick:
I should hope you wouldn't as again THAT'S NOT TRUE. FAR MORE engines fail after NA tuning than after nitrous has been added AND you should keep in mind, that those NA engines are NOT making anywhere near the same power increases as the nitrous motors. IF people ONLY increased their power with nitrous by the same level as they'd achieve by NA means, there would NEVER be ANY engine failures, as 99% of engine failures when using nitrous are JUST DUE to either TOO MUCH power for the components (due to not knowing the limits) and/or people being too greedy.
IF you could make as much power NA as you could on nitrous, WITHOUT increasing the strength of engine components, NA motors would be flying apart at an alarming rate.

The ONLY 2 reasons why NA tuning 'MAY' APPEAR to be more reliable, is because;
1) As stated above they make so little power and even less torque compared to nitrous
2) Most NA tuning parts REPLACE the inherently weak original parts with MUCH stronger alternatives (as you've done with you HC FORGED pistons) but if you just fitted an OEM CAST piston of a higher compression, that would be even more likely to fail than the stock compression piston.

Anyone who thinks NA tuning even comes close to being a rival for nitrous enhancement, hasn't considered ALL THE FACTS CORRECTLY!!!!!

Keep in mind that before I switched to manufacturing nitrous systems, I was an EXTREMELY SUCCESSFUL conventional tuner, so I'm FULLY AWARE of BOTH methods of making more power.

IF NA tuning had even come close to nitrous, I wouldn't have dumped that business and put everything in to nitrous.

FYI the final straw was spending a couple of weeks porting a stock Rover V8 head, to see just 20 ish RWHP gain, when switching a pair of nitrous jets in 2 minutes (and MUCH less effort), gave me more than TEN TIMES THAT AMOUNT.

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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:04 am 
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Hi I joined this forum a few weeks ago, mainly to try and learn a bit about nitrous.

I am on the verge of going down the nos route my self, but thought my experience so far with my 120ps 2009 fiesta zetec s, may in some ways add some weight to the N/A verses nos discussion.

im not a young kid, im a man in my 40's with a bit of disposable income.

ok... My fiesta is fitted with the 1.6 ti/vct N/A engine, The car itself looks quite sporty more sporty than it actually is really, and i do tend to get picked on a bit by faster cars. There are quite a few tuning bits and bobs available, so I fitted a full stainless steel single box exhaust, with 200 cell sports cat and stainless tubular exhaust manifold with a free flowing induction kit which is basically branded as a 140ps bolt on kit by a well known ford tuning company, this has cost well over a grand... and to be honest i am a bit disappointed, the car makes a lot more racket and only feels marginally quicker.... I need a bit more!!!

The next step is a pair of cams and a remap for a further 15ps which costs another grand... or im thinking for the same outlay im leaning towards having a nos kit installed which would give at the least another 25hp.... if what i have read so far is correct 25hp of nos is quite safe.

It would be nice to have some extra power available for overtaking trucks on single carriageway A roads and of course for when my mirrors are full of fiesta ST on dual carriageways... and then revert back to nice dependable stock(ish) motor for driving the mrs to sainsburys etc.

only thing is will 25hp extra be enough....

anyway theres my introduction and two penneth to the discussion all in one :D

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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 9:59 pm 
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Goyle wrote:
Hi I joined this forum a few weeks ago, mainly to try and learn a bit about nitrous.
Hi Goyle, welcome to my forum.

I am on the verge of going down the nos route my self, but thought my experience so far with my 120ps 2009 fiesta zetec s, may in some ways add some weight to the N/A verses nos discussion.

im not a young kid, im a man in my 40's with a bit of disposable income.
Still a young chap then and wish I was that age again or better still 20 and know what I know now. :yes:

ok... My fiesta is fitted with the 1.6 ti/vct N/A engine, The car itself looks quite sporty more sporty than it actually is really, and i do tend to get picked on a bit by faster cars. There are quite a few tuning bits and bobs available, so I fitted a full stainless steel single box exhaust, with 200 cell sports cat and stainless tubular exhaust manifold with a free flowing induction kit which is basically branded as a 140ps bolt on kit by a well known ford tuning company, this has cost well over a grand... and to be honest i am a bit disappointed, the car makes a lot more racket and only feels marginally quicker.... I need a bit more!!!
Unfortunately that doesn't surprise me one bit but at least it will allow the nitrous to perform better.

The next step is a pair of cams and a remap for a further 15ps which costs another grand... or im thinking for the same outlay im leaning towards having a nos kit installed which would give at the least another 25hp....
The cams etc will be yet another waste of money for the following reasons;
1) When a NA product claims a to delivery a power increase it is USUALLY ONLY at or close to PEAK power
2) Meanwhile, over some sector of the RPM range the power will be LOWER than before
3) Likewise the TORQUE will be lower over the majority of the RPM range and the peak will be shifted higher up
4) All the above makes the engine feel relatively gutless until it's all too late.

In contrast with the above when adding nitrous it delivers the following benefits;
1) A HUGE increase in TORQUE over the ENTIRE RPM range - A 25hp increase will deliver approx. a 25 ftlb increase in torque over the entire RPM range.
2) NO reduction in power at ANY POINT in the RPM range
3) The additional power is available at ALL RPM


if what i have read so far is correct 25hp of nos is quite safe.
As long as its a WON system it is certainly safe.

It would be nice to have some extra power available for overtaking trucks on single carriageway A roads and of course for when my mirrors are full of fiesta ST on dual carriageways... and then revert back to nice dependable stock(ish) motor for driving the mrs to sainsburys etc.
Exactly what nitrous is ideal for.

only thing is will 25hp extra be enough....
I'm pretty sure that we have customers with similar engines that have used 40 or 50hp extra reliably.

anyway theres my introduction and two penneth to the discussion all in one :D

Being very short of time I've created a ROUGH graph to show the difference between these options with black being the standard power, red being the NA tuning and blue being nitrous. For anyone unaware of it, the bigger the area under the graph, the quicker the car will accelerate.


Attachments:
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Untitled.jpg [ 40.88 KiB | Viewed 6046 times ]

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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Mon Oct 19, 2015 11:55 pm 
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Noswizard wrote:

the bigger the area under the graph, the quicker the car will accelerate.


And the easier it is for the tires to turn into smoke! :yes:


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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2015 11:26 am 
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Very true :omgrofl:

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