Noswizard wrote:
After ALL the trouble we're having with your engine Ron, I'd have thought you above all others would have appreciated the negatives of NA tuning.
lol, yes, one would have thought
but to be fair, a lot of this is owed to me not knowing the full extent of the damage of the engine and hoping that it would be a nice and easy build...the same could be said of a nitrous build, had the owner bought parts and missed out important factors for consideration/eventualities (eg the block sleeving, followers, etc)
Noswizard wrote:
The reason for not posting positives, was because most people are already aware of them and ONLY have negative concepts about nitrous, so if anything I was evening out the current situation.
I understand your point Trev, but an unfair battle, is still an unfair battle
I always stray most people I meet AWAY from nitrous because I know they're the type of people who wont understand WHY an engine might fail under nitrous, so I don't bother trying to explain to them, because as you probably have experience in this - once people are set in their ways/beliefs, they seldom ever change. So for those constantly pointing out the negatives on nitrous, I don't waste my time on them. Although on the other hand, I can totally understand why you have to do so.
Noswizard wrote:
1) It's always 'on tap - if you have adequate storage the same can be said for nitrous and and that's only the same as having to fill up your petrol tank.
Bah, but nitrous costs about 4 times as much as a litre of fuel!!
Noswizard wrote:
2) The engine becomes more responsive - not as responsive as a nitrous engine
Yes, but I was referring to being more responsive to what it originally was
Noswizard wrote:
3) It's 'fun' to see how the overall car develops as a whole, with the incremental mods - same applies to nitrous as you step up the power
I can agree with that.
Noswizard wrote:
4) Engine sound changes to a much more raw note, which I happen to love in my celica - that's an exhaust issue and the same "with spades" would apply to the same exhaust using nitrous
No, I'm going to stay with the
engine note being changed here...or at least it did on my car with the array of different intakes I've tried on the stock exhaust system. But I also agree that the sound does change under nitrous as well...sounds quite evil infact
Noswizard wrote:
5) Lower end power doesn't always get affected...a good intake with the right sized inlet leading to perhaps a slightly overbored throttle body will increase low end torque/hp (proven on my celica, albeit a 4hp increase, but it provides more potential more the top end
) -
The ONLY time bottom end power isn't affected is if the upper end increase is SMALL - the mods needed to match what can be achieved with nitrous will always result in a loss of low end power.Fair enough, I know what you mean here, but my point was that it doesn't
always get affected
Noswizard wrote:
6) Let's be honest...we all love thrashing a motor to the hilt and well, if it makes power to the fuel cut, it makes it more fun...although this probably best advised on a built engine - same applies when using nitrous BUT the torque it makes is even more fun, because that's what pins you in your seat.
Couldn't agree more
Noswizard wrote:
7) You get more brownie points among other enthuiasts if you manage to extract a particular amount of power from a given engine with N/A mods
-
lol ONLY from those who don't appreciate what is required to max out nitrous.Yes, but sadly I'm yet to meet anyone locally that knows more about nitrous than me so I'm yet to recieve
these brownie points (and I consider myself to know plenty for a user, but no way near enough to be considered a guru
)
Noswizard wrote:
8] N/A mods can increase the overall efficiency of a nitrous system - in some but not all instances
I'd like to learn what instances these are, sir...
Please tell me which instances this rule doesn't apply...
From what I can assume on N/A mods, in essence, just improving the airflow into the engine and out of it, here is how I think these mods help nitrous:
Cold Air Intake - slightly reduces inlet air temps (although probably not enough to matter when nitrous is injected anyway)
Bored throttle body/intake manidold - I'm not sure...probably nothing under nitrous
Ported head - bit obvious really. But also, rougher ports mix A/F better under nitrous
Higher compression - ok not the best thing for heavy nitrous use, but it will increase the efficiency of a given jetting
(although I know you're going to say "but it's better to just stick with stock compression and run a larger dose!!"
)
Free flow manifold - Priceless for N/A use and then even better under big nitrous doses
Free flow exhaust - Again, bit obvious, but the drawbacks of noise can be annoying
Light flywheel - more torque from nitrous will help turn this baby with more force
Cams -
I know you wont agree, but the larger duration will allow for more nitrous to enter per revolution, which can be very beneficial at high revs
Noswizard wrote:
9) On modern cars with VVT, a nice set of cams can have the intake timing advanced a good deal at high rpm to benefit most with peak power, while at low rpm the cam timing can be 'normal' so that idle/driveability doesn't suffer - not that many cars with VVT though and its not something you can add to a car that doesn't have it already
True, fair enough. But my car has it, so I'm gonna stick my tongue out at you now!
Noswizard wrote:
10) With the way gearing is set, when changing gears at high rpms, you want the peak power to be there anyway so that you can continue to accelerate onto a quicker E.T. - WRONG you want the TORQUE available over a broader rpm range to produce quicker ET's and ONLY nitrous can deliver that. If you had 2 cars one NA and the other 50:50 NA:Nitrous, with both making the same peak power, the 50:50 car would be MUCH quicker than the all NA car.
I totally agree, but again, I wasn't comparing N/A to nitrous as that's just not fair. Comparing two N/A cars, if one had a higher peak power figure (which would always be in the top end of the gearing band) against the other, it WILL win a drag
Noswizard wrote:
Yes these points still aren't strong enough to outweigh a nitrous system based on bang for buck, or even power, but then again this isn't a fair contest. It's like asking a lightweight boxer to train himself up as much as he can against a fully trained up heavyweight. N/A versus F/I isn't a fair contest
That's about the size of it yet people still spend vast sums of money on NA tuning mods rather than nitrous, because they are ill informed and that was the reason for my original post.Then if these people want to spend shedloads on N/A mods, then so be it. Put it this way, sir - if kids keep eating fatty mcdonalds meals all the time, then cry on sports day that they came last, isn't it their fault that they didn't bother to take care of themselves and prepare better? As you know, you can try, try and try to give someone good advice, but if they want to do things their way, what else can be done, except to rest in the knowledge that you tried...
Noswizard wrote:
Also, hopefully when my motor is up and running it'll be squeezing at least an extra 100hp through nitrous...to me personally, N/A + nitrous is the best combo. My reasoning is that with all the extra breathing changes made to mostly benefit the upper bracket of the rpm band, the nitrous will be much more effective and also, the nitrous will quash any moans of a loss of low end power anyway
If you can have both then you can benefit from the advantages of both but if it has to be one or the other, nitrous wins hands down. lol, well, duh!!!
Noswizard wrote:
I'll tell you something else as well, IF you had to do the tuning work yourself, you'd be even more convinced of that. Are you referring to my car here? lol, if so, then that's why I left the best to deal with it, while I just cough up some cash
Noswizard wrote:
Psssh, toasted? More like bullied!!
Just kidding mate, you know I like a reasoned debate. All I was trying to point out was that N/A has it's benefits too, but I also mentionned that it's not comparable to Nitrous either...if you want to convey a message over to the ill-informed crowd, you should do the whole turbo/supercharger vs nitrous debate (which i know you've done many times over) as that's a much more interesting, less one-sided debate