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 Post subject: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:49 pm 
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I was asked by a forum member to make a post on another forum about nitrous (WON) Vs NA tuning, which I did and so I thought I'd just add the post to our forum as it hasn't been covered here for a long time.

The main thrust of this thread is to consider ALL the associated factors of enhancing engine performance using normally aspirated tuning methods, compared to using WON nitrous injection. I must emphasise that the following comparison ONLY applies to WON systems and NO OTHER, because WON systems have many UNIQUE, beneficial features.

Just ensure there is no doubt about my ability to deal with both sides of this issue fairly, let me state for the record that before I started working with nitrous, I was a very successful conventional tuner. Furthermore, it is ESSENTIAL to have a comprehensive understanding of ALL aspects of engine design/performance, to achieve the outstanding results I and my customers have produced when using nitrous.

Before I get in to the main thrust of the subject, I'd like to deal with a couple of associated points that I picked up on whilst reading the original thread;

1) I can confirm that the MOST important aspect of head tuning is a 3 angle valve job.

2) It is also the cheapest and most cost effective modification you can do to head.

3) Polishing ports is detrimental to performance

4) The shape of the port is far more important than the finish of the port wall

5) To be fair to SOME head specialists, the appropriate modifications to make a "reasonable" improvement to the flow through a head, can often be very subtle and only an expert could see the difference

6) The cheapest way to improve the flow of a head, is to take the head to a local machine shop and have them carry out a 3 angle valve job. Buy a roll of 1" wide coarse emery cloth, then get a 6" length of 1/2" bar and cut a 1" long slot in one end. Cut a length of tape off the roll and insert one end in the slot. Coil the tape round the bar till it fits snuggly in the intake port. Insert the bar in a drill and with the drill running, work the bar down the port to remove any irregularities.

7) To get a result better than you will achieve using the above techniques, it would take major head work by an expert that would be likely to cost over £1,000 to be carried out correctly.

8) To achieve worthwhile benefits from NA mods, it's often essential to carry out a number of mods together.

9) Whatever power you can gain using other techniques (NA, turbo or blower), nitrous can increase it even more. It would even be possible to increase the power of an F1 engine using nitrous, if it was allowed.

10) It is often said that NA power is constantly available but that is not strictly true, because it takes time using NA power to reach the higher power levels desired, whereas with nitrous the performance enhancement is INSTANT. Furthermore, what use is power that is always available, when it is IMPOSSIBLE to drive a car at constant WOT, even on open roads, never mind on our crowded roads as they are today?

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:55 pm 
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Now to the core of the thread. The following negative factors associated with NA tuning are often overlooked:

1) Conventional tuning involves raising the upper rpm working limit of the engine. This increases the stress on ALL engine components (making them more likely to fail) and increases the wear rate. Component changes that are suitable for achieving higher rpm power, themselves increase component wear rate and stress on some of the other engine components, as well as causing losses in low to mid range power/torque. Such changes also adversely affect idle, low speed drivability and the overall economy of the car.

2) You usually start off with a well designed and well assembled engine (courtesy of the manufacturer) but now you're going to entrust that engine to someone who is unlikely to be as well equipped, yet they are claiming to do a better job in carrying out more complex work. In the main that's unlikely (although there are obviously some companies that can achieve that), so there is an associated risk just by disturbing the original engine assembly.I've seen more engine failures due to bad NA work than I've seen by WON product failure, an easy task as we've NEVER had a WON product failure.

3) Carrying out NA modifications is a complex job and the more complex the work the greater the risk of problems that can lead to down time. We also carry out engine re-build work (although we try to avoid NA tuning work now) and I can assure you that engine work can often over run by weeks due to unexpected issues, leading to exceptionally long off road time.

4) If a modified engine component failed it would need replacement and quite often would have lead to other engine components failing.

5) When the modified engine parts wear out (which they will do at a much quicker rate), they will need replacing.


The following are positive factors associated with WON nitrous systems that are often overlooked;

1) Nitrous can enhance vehicle performance without exceeding the original rpm limit, it is even possible to do so using a lower rpm limit.

2) Nitrous enhances torque and power across the entire rpm range, so there is no need to sacrifice low end torque for high end power.

3) It is possible to achieve performance enhancement using nitrous, without increasing the risk of component failure and without increasing wear.

4) Fitting a nitrous system will not adversely affect the normal running of the engine, the drivability of the car or the fuel economy.

5) Your well assembled and proven reliable engine does not need to be pulled apart to fit a nitrous system. This removes the risk that the work will take longer than expected and the possibility that the work will be done incorrectly. WON nitrous systems are very simple to fit DIY and if fitted professionally, the work can be carried out within a predictable time scale.

6) WON components NEVER fail as a consequence of poor workmanship or component quality issues and even if they did, they are covered by a lifetime guarantee. Even if a component failed due to misuse or abuse, they can be repaired for a modest cost.

7) WON components will NEVER wear out, so you'll never need to spend another penny once you have the nitrous system of your choice.


Further factors;

1) If you buy NA tuning parts for your engine and your car is involved in an accident and then declared a write off, you can't recover your parts but if you were quick enough, you could have removed the nitrous system to be used on your next car.

2) If you buy NA tuning parts and then decide to replace your car, even if you buy the same model, it's a pain in the ass to remove them, fit standard ones, remove the standard parts and refit the tuned parts to the new engine, whereas it's a doddle to transplant the nitrous system.

3) If you buy NA tuning parts and then decide to buy a completely different car, your tuning parts would be useless to you, even if you went to the trouble of removing them, however a WON nitrous system can be transplanted from a MOPED to a TRUCK if required and at worst would only need relatively minor upgrades to do so.

4) If you spend £1,000 to increase the power of your engine by say 25 hp using NA components, it is likely to cost you £2,000 to achieve a further 25 hp, because the costs of conventional tuning increase exponentially as the power is ramped up. However, once you have bought a nitrous system, you are not limited in the same way from the outset and for relatively modest additional expenditure, it's possible to increase the power by HUGE amounts.

For example our basic nitrous system costs under £500 and this is ALL you need to achieve more power than most people can handle, but we would limit you to an initial power increase of just 25 hp. For just a further £12 that power can be increased to 50 hp and for a further £12 that can be raised to 75 hp. Now as I stated, most people would not be able to handle such an increase in the way this system would deliver the power, so for as little as a further £229 you could add a progressive control unit that would allow you to use even the 75 hp increase in a manageable way.

At this point you may need to improve the following components to continue your drive for more power;

i) Fuel system - Estimate £200
ii) Clutch - Estimate £400
iii) Ignition system - Estimate £300
iv) Pistons - Estimate £500
v) Head gaskets - Estimate £120

With all the above mods it is quite likely that you could achieve a power figure in excess of 300 hp and yet the price is still less than the £2,500 quoted for a mere 195 hp using NA components. Plus many of these additional mods required to generate and handle nitrous power (like the fuel system and clutch), would also be needed for the same power increases using NA methods anyway.

Now that's plenty to chew on for now but I'm sure I've missed off a number of associated factors, so I'll come back with those as and when they come to me. In the meantime if you'd like to read more on the subject, there are chapters in my book that are dedicated to comparing nitrous enhancement with NA, turbo and blower enhancements, in greater detail.

I invite any forum member to dispute any of my statements but be warned, I can support all my claims with detailed technical evidence, should I need to do so and have only scratched the surface in this post, to try and keep it shorter than it would otherwise have been.

The last paragraph was added to the original post on the other forum but I'm guessing it won't be needed here but if anyone needs anything clarifying please feel free. ;)

Regards

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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:42 pm 
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Hi :)

I would agree with everything Trev has already said...

I was asked many times to build "faster" engines in the 80s and 90s ,which I did...

They cost HUGE amounts of money, even then....I am talking Thousands...

One of my favourite sayings at the time was.....Yes I can make it go as fast as you wish, but HOW MUCH speed can you afford ???

The advantage of Trevs Won systems is that £ per HP ...I know of no better deal....

One final note of warning, which applies to Won as well...

I once built an engine for a customer and it was putting out over 400 hp at the wheels....

I told him he MUST up rate the brakes BEFORE he drove it.....

He didn't listen and went down to a "Chelsea Cruise" one weekend and was showing off and drove straight down an alley at high speed, and unfortunately that alley ended in a dead end brick wall.....

I saw the car the following week and nearly cried when I saw the engine I had built pushed back into the passenger seat....

The point being , spend a little on safety as well :)

All the best Brett :)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:41 am 
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Thanks for that Brett and if there's any further points I've missed on either side of the arguement please feel free to mention them.

Brakes are a given and well worth a mention, although on a modest increase, stock brakes are usually adequate. ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 8:26 am 
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good post trev, i cant find anything to argue about (thats rare, im a good one for arguing!!)

brett... boy am i glad i have the 305mm AP Racing brakes! :D

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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:16 am 
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I'll chime in here with my personal opinion, whether it is well recieved or not :P

I agree that £ for £, nitrous tuning is second to none, as I had experienced that for a good while on my celica before modding it N/A. Unless you're incredibly naive or misinformed, there's no way any amount of N/A tuning will be able to draw in the same levels of raw torque that a nitrous system gives. But for the sake of making this an even battle, why not have some positives of N/A tuning?

1) It's always 'on tap
2) The engine becomes more responsive
3) It's 'fun' to see how the overall car develops as a whole, with the incremental mods
4) Engine sound changes to a much more raw note, which I happen to love in my celica
5) Lower end power doesn't always get affected...a good intake with the right sized inlet leading to perhaps a slightly overbored throttle body will increase low end torque/hp (proven on my celica, albeit a 4hp increase, but it provides more potential more the top end :idea: )
6) Let's be honest...we all love thrashing a motor to the hilt and well, if it makes power to the fuel cut, it makes it more fun...although this probably best advised on a built engine
7) You get more brownie points among other enthuiasts if you manage to extract a particular amount of power from a given engine with N/A mods :lol:
8) N/A mods can increase the overall efficiency of a nitrous system
9) On modern cars with VVT, a nice set of cams can have the intake timing advanced a good deal at high rpm to benefit most with peak power, while at low rpm the cam timing can be 'normal' so that idle/driveability doesn't suffer
10) With the way gearing is set, when changing gears at high rpms, you want the peak power to be there anyway so that you can continue to accelerate onto a quicker E.T.

Yes these points still aren't strong enough to outweigh a nitrous system based on bang for buck, or even power, but then again this isn't a fair contest. It's like asking a lightweight boxer to train himself up as much as he can against a fully trained up heavyweight. N/A versus F/I isn't a fair contest :P

That said, for those of you wondering, yes my car is a fully built (or nearly anyway, lol) N/A motor, which I'm hoping to hit mid 13's with from the little 1.8 4cylinder block. I am a huge nitrous fan and during the whole aspect of my build in deciding how/what route I should take, I was making sure nitrous could stay as part of my plans. I could have gone turbo (probably should have, with the costs i've had to ensure on the head itself) but I wanted to create something special N/A and that's what tuning cars is about...personal satisfaction of the owner/enthusiast.

Also, hopefully when my motor is up and running it'll be squeezing at least an extra 100hp through nitrous...to me personally, N/A + nitrous is the best combo. My reasoning is that with all the extra breathing changes made to mostly benefit the upper bracket of the rpm band, the nitrous will be much more effective and also, the nitrous will quash any moans of a loss of low end power anyway :twisted:

Right...who's first then :beatstick:


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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:20 am 
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I looked at this very carfully before i decided to fit nitrous , and also at engin builders , what gains they claim , and more to point apart from rebor head and cam work ect all the other bits that seamed to be optional extras untill something went bang and then it would seam they were not so optional and also got quite a bit of info from other people with same bike as me theres a few 1000,s of us :D :D and more to point would bike still be useable or even reliable answer to last 2 was at best a maybe :shock: :shock: and just on cost even with my extra bottle min max fuel pump ect ect i bet im still only at 50% of cost of a big bore rebuild and making about 25 bhp more

Now in reall life terms ok NA always is on tap but in all fairness most of time i dont even use the NA power i have on a daily basies or on road so did not see point of having a highly stressed , high compression race tuned engin and if i want to play flick a switch and go like fek :twisted: :twisted: and my engin is now already out performing both me and the rest of my Bike :twisted: :twisted: ,

Funny remmebr a conversation a few months back , was told ya should have just gone turbo bla bla bla , it awsome ect, funny the said turbo engin after a few weeks went bang big time destroying the engin , guess i won that argument in Nitrous blows ya engin 8)


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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:04 am 
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i think it depends on what engine you´ve got.
i would never ever use the E30 ///M3 engine for N2O! :bow: That´s out of place!

but i´ve got a V12 :D
N/A tuning would be 20k and much more to see some HP.
bear in mind you can get a used stock engine for 0-500 euro with trans, wiring and ECU! it is the cheapest part in my car :bigsmurf:

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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:42 am 
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After ALL the trouble we're having with your engine Ron, I'd have thought you above all others would have appreciated the negatives of NA tuning.

Ron wrote:
I'll chime in here with my personal opinion, whether it is well recieved or not :P

I agree that £ for £, nitrous tuning is second to none, as I had experienced that for a good while on my celica before modding it N/A. Unless you're incredibly naive or misinformed, there's no way any amount of N/A tuning will be able to draw in the same levels of raw torque that a nitrous system gives. But for the sake of making this an even battle, why not have some positives of N/A tuning?
The reason for not posting positives, was because most people are already aware of them and ONLY have negative concepts about nitrous, so if anything I was evening out the current situation.

1) It's always 'on tap - if you have adequate storage the same can be said for nitrous and and that's only the same as having to fill up your petrol tank.
2) The engine becomes more responsive - not as responsive as a nitrous engine
3) It's 'fun' to see how the overall car develops as a whole, with the incremental mods - same applies to nitrous as you step up the power
4) Engine sound changes to a much more raw note, which I happen to love in my celica - that's an exhaust issue and the same "with spades" would apply to the same exhaust using nitrous
5) Lower end power doesn't always get affected...a good intake with the right sized inlet leading to perhaps a slightly overbored throttle body will increase low end torque/hp (proven on my celica, albeit a 4hp increase, but it provides more potential more the top end :idea: ) - The ONLY time bottom end power isn't affected is if the upper end increase is SMALL - the mods needed to match what can be achieved with nitrous will always result in a loss of low end power.
6) Let's be honest...we all love thrashing a motor to the hilt and well, if it makes power to the fuel cut, it makes it more fun...although this probably best advised on a built engine - same applies when using nitrous BUT the torque it makes is even more fun, because that's what pins you in your seat.
7) You get more brownie points among other enthuiasts if you manage to extract a particular amount of power from a given engine with N/A mods :lol: - lol ONLY from those who don't appreciate what is required to max out nitrous.
8] N/A mods can increase the overall efficiency of a nitrous system - in some but not all instances
9) On modern cars with VVT, a nice set of cams can have the intake timing advanced a good deal at high rpm to benefit most with peak power, while at low rpm the cam timing can be 'normal' so that idle/driveability doesn't suffer - not that many cars with VVT though and its not something you can add to a car that doesn't have it already
10) With the way gearing is set, when changing gears at high rpms, you want the peak power to be there anyway so that you can continue to accelerate onto a quicker E.T. - WRONG you want the TORQUE available over a broader rpm range to produce quicker ET's and ONLY nitrous can deliver that. If you had 2 cars one NA and the other 50:50 NA:Nitrous, with both making the same peak power, the 50:50 car would be MUCH quicker than the all NA car.

Yes these points still aren't strong enough to outweigh a nitrous system based on bang for buck, or even power, but then again this isn't a fair contest. It's like asking a lightweight boxer to train himself up as much as he can against a fully trained up heavyweight. N/A versus F/I isn't a fair contest :P
That's about the size of it yet people still spend vast sums of money on NA tuning mods rather than nitrous, because they are ill informed and that was the reason for my original post.

That said, for those of you wondering, yes my car is a fully built (or nearly anyway, lol) N/A motor, which I'm hoping to hit mid 13's with from the little 1.8 4cylinder block. I am a huge nitrous fan and during the whole aspect of my build in deciding how/what route I should take, I was making sure nitrous could stay as part of my plans. I could have gone turbo (probably should have, with the costs i've had to ensure on the head itself) but I wanted to create something special N/A and that's what tuning cars is about...personal satisfaction of the owner/enthusiast.
That's about the ONLY acceptable reason for choosing the NA route instead of nitrous.

Also, hopefully when my motor is up and running it'll be squeezing at least an extra 100hp through nitrous...to me personally, N/A + nitrous is the best combo. My reasoning is that with all the extra breathing changes made to mostly benefit the upper bracket of the rpm band, the nitrous will be much more effective and also, the nitrous will quash any moans of a loss of low end power anyway :twisted:
If you can have both then you can benefit from the advantages of both but if it has to be one or the other, nitrous wins hands down. ;)
I'll tell you something else as well, IF you had to do the tuning work yourself, you'd be even more convinced of that.
:shock:

Right...who's first then :beatstick:
I'm always first. :violent3: consider yourself toasted :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:52 pm 
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Noswizard wrote:
After ALL the trouble we're having with your engine Ron, I'd have thought you above all others would have appreciated the negatives of NA tuning.


lol, yes, one would have thought :rofl: but to be fair, a lot of this is owed to me not knowing the full extent of the damage of the engine and hoping that it would be a nice and easy build...the same could be said of a nitrous build, had the owner bought parts and missed out important factors for consideration/eventualities (eg the block sleeving, followers, etc)

Noswizard wrote:
The reason for not posting positives, was because most people are already aware of them and ONLY have negative concepts about nitrous, so if anything I was evening out the current situation.


I understand your point Trev, but an unfair battle, is still an unfair battle :idea: I always stray most people I meet AWAY from nitrous because I know they're the type of people who wont understand WHY an engine might fail under nitrous, so I don't bother trying to explain to them, because as you probably have experience in this - once people are set in their ways/beliefs, they seldom ever change. So for those constantly pointing out the negatives on nitrous, I don't waste my time on them. Although on the other hand, I can totally understand why you have to do so.

Noswizard wrote:
1) It's always 'on tap - if you have adequate storage the same can be said for nitrous and and that's only the same as having to fill up your petrol tank.


Bah, but nitrous costs about 4 times as much as a litre of fuel!! :lol:

Noswizard wrote:
2) The engine becomes more responsive - not as responsive as a nitrous engine


Yes, but I was referring to being more responsive to what it originally was ;)

Noswizard wrote:
3) It's 'fun' to see how the overall car develops as a whole, with the incremental mods - same applies to nitrous as you step up the power


I can agree with that. :twisted:

Noswizard wrote:
4) Engine sound changes to a much more raw note, which I happen to love in my celica - that's an exhaust issue and the same "with spades" would apply to the same exhaust using nitrous


No, I'm going to stay with the engine note being changed here...or at least it did on my car with the array of different intakes I've tried on the stock exhaust system. But I also agree that the sound does change under nitrous as well...sounds quite evil infact :twisted:

Noswizard wrote:
5) Lower end power doesn't always get affected...a good intake with the right sized inlet leading to perhaps a slightly overbored throttle body will increase low end torque/hp (proven on my celica, albeit a 4hp increase, but it provides more potential more the top end :idea: ) - The ONLY time bottom end power isn't affected is if the upper end increase is SMALL - the mods needed to match what can be achieved with nitrous will always result in a loss of low end power.


Fair enough, I know what you mean here, but my point was that it doesn't always get affected ;)

Noswizard wrote:
6) Let's be honest...we all love thrashing a motor to the hilt and well, if it makes power to the fuel cut, it makes it more fun...although this probably best advised on a built engine - same applies when using nitrous BUT the torque it makes is even more fun, because that's what pins you in your seat.


Couldn't agree more :cheers:

Noswizard wrote:
7) You get more brownie points among other enthuiasts if you manage to extract a particular amount of power from a given engine with N/A mods :lol: - lol ONLY from those who don't appreciate what is required to max out nitrous.


Yes, but sadly I'm yet to meet anyone locally that knows more about nitrous than me so I'm yet to recieve these brownie points (and I consider myself to know plenty for a user, but no way near enough to be considered a guru :redface: )

Noswizard wrote:
8] N/A mods can increase the overall efficiency of a nitrous system - in some but not all instances


I'd like to learn what instances these are, sir... :redface: Please tell me which instances this rule doesn't apply...

From what I can assume on N/A mods, in essence, just improving the airflow into the engine and out of it, here is how I think these mods help nitrous:

Cold Air Intake - slightly reduces inlet air temps (although probably not enough to matter when nitrous is injected anyway)
Bored throttle body/intake manidold - I'm not sure...probably nothing under nitrous
Ported head - bit obvious really. But also, rougher ports mix A/F better under nitrous
Higher compression - ok not the best thing for heavy nitrous use, but it will increase the efficiency of a given jetting :idea: (although I know you're going to say "but it's better to just stick with stock compression and run a larger dose!!" :redface: )
Free flow manifold - Priceless for N/A use and then even better under big nitrous doses
Free flow exhaust - Again, bit obvious, but the drawbacks of noise can be annoying
Light flywheel - more torque from nitrous will help turn this baby with more force
Cams - :lol: I know you wont agree, but the larger duration will allow for more nitrous to enter per revolution, which can be very beneficial at high revs :idea:

Noswizard wrote:
9) On modern cars with VVT, a nice set of cams can have the intake timing advanced a good deal at high rpm to benefit most with peak power, while at low rpm the cam timing can be 'normal' so that idle/driveability doesn't suffer - not that many cars with VVT though and its not something you can add to a car that doesn't have it already


True, fair enough. But my car has it, so I'm gonna stick my tongue out at you now! :P

Noswizard wrote:
10) With the way gearing is set, when changing gears at high rpms, you want the peak power to be there anyway so that you can continue to accelerate onto a quicker E.T. - WRONG you want the TORQUE available over a broader rpm range to produce quicker ET's and ONLY nitrous can deliver that. If you had 2 cars one NA and the other 50:50 NA:Nitrous, with both making the same peak power, the 50:50 car would be MUCH quicker than the all NA car.


I totally agree, but again, I wasn't comparing N/A to nitrous as that's just not fair. Comparing two N/A cars, if one had a higher peak power figure (which would always be in the top end of the gearing band) against the other, it WILL win a drag :mrgreen:

Noswizard wrote:
Yes these points still aren't strong enough to outweigh a nitrous system based on bang for buck, or even power, but then again this isn't a fair contest. It's like asking a lightweight boxer to train himself up as much as he can against a fully trained up heavyweight. N/A versus F/I isn't a fair contest :P
That's about the size of it yet people still spend vast sums of money on NA tuning mods rather than nitrous, because they are ill informed and that was the reason for my original post.


Then if these people want to spend shedloads on N/A mods, then so be it. Put it this way, sir - if kids keep eating fatty mcdonalds meals all the time, then cry on sports day that they came last, isn't it their fault that they didn't bother to take care of themselves and prepare better? As you know, you can try, try and try to give someone good advice, but if they want to do things their way, what else can be done, except to rest in the knowledge that you tried... :idea:

Noswizard wrote:
Also, hopefully when my motor is up and running it'll be squeezing at least an extra 100hp through nitrous...to me personally, N/A + nitrous is the best combo. My reasoning is that with all the extra breathing changes made to mostly benefit the upper bracket of the rpm band, the nitrous will be much more effective and also, the nitrous will quash any moans of a loss of low end power anyway :twisted:
If you can have both then you can benefit from the advantages of both but if it has to be one or the other, nitrous wins hands down. ;)


lol, well, duh!!! :omgrofl:

Noswizard wrote:
I'll tell you something else as well, IF you had to do the tuning work yourself, you'd be even more convinced of that. :shock:


Are you referring to my car here? lol, if so, then that's why I left the best to deal with it, while I just cough up some cash :lol:

Noswizard wrote:
Right...who's first then :beatstick:
I'm always first. :violent3: consider yourself toasted :lol:


Psssh, toasted? More like bullied!! :mrgreen:

Just kidding mate, you know I like a reasoned debate. All I was trying to point out was that N/A has it's benefits too, but I also mentionned that it's not comparable to Nitrous either...if you want to convey a message over to the ill-informed crowd, you should do the whole turbo/supercharger vs nitrous debate (which i know you've done many times over) as that's a much more interesting, less one-sided debate :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:10 pm 
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Nice reply Trev and a good read

The power thing is some thing that really did come into play in my choice

Now my XJR NA oki it was derestriced a bit , just filter , jets bigger inlet rubbers and a zorst but this is almost standard on bikes any way it makes 98 lbs of tourqe at rear wheel and 125 bhp but more to point it makes at at 8,000 rpm its classed as a muscel bike so low down go like **** upto about 80mph but tops out at 155 mph , Now racing bikes like R1s and busas rev to about 14,000 have more bhp but they have to wind them up and they can do about 180 mph up ward but off line upto about 8o mph my bike will kill most of them of the line and i have the aerodynamics of a feking bus :shock: :shock: , now i have see dynos of many NA tuned XJRs and ride on road against them there BHP gose up some more than 40 bhp over my NA but all to top end this looked good on paper but on road my bike would still nail a big bored race tuned XJR upto 80 mph till they wound it up that ive proved on road :D

so enter nitrous dont tune the motor keep the tourqe of line then add nitrous as soon as possibel to add even more before they have a chance to wind theres up and you have one fek of engin

Now oki im not at record breaking 1/4s yet in the bike world unless you compare my xjr to an big bored race tuned high comp engin xjr and i can tell you best they can run is 11.05 secs 1/4 im only at 10.94 but that was on very safe rich settings but my terminal went from 117 mph to 132 over the 1/4, which now ive prove what my engin likes nitrous and with Trevs help is now close to optimal i can tell this as after my last install and reworking of nitrous and fule supplies if Mini max is set to max power it will pull a wheelie in 3rd at over 100mph just by pushing a small button :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Now proof is in the pudding so to speak and if i learn to handle this bike and get power in in 1st gear well lets just say some things are not ment to be an a low 10 sec XJR is one of them


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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:19 pm 
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PS i am now restriced by by aerodynamics and chassies suspension ect ect but i do belive Trev will know that an engin like mine FJ1200 (andy and newk) on nitrous (Trevs kit) set the fastest top speed record back in 90s all be it was fitted to a drag bike chassies set up but it dose prove I do now have the power and tourqe in my engin but just me not wanting to have a drag bike and keep a road bike keeps me from some very fast 1/4s and that was an almost standard NA engin 8) 8)


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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:13 pm 
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lol, yes, one would have thought :rofl: but to be fair, a lot of this is owed to me not knowing the full extent of the damage of the engine and hoping that it would be a nice and easy build...the same could be said of a nitrous build, had the owner bought parts and missed out important factors for consideration/eventualities (eg the block sleeving, followers, etc)
NOT SO, most of the PROBLEMS (NOT the cost) are JUST due to the complexities of NA tuning work and nitrous will still work well on an untuned and even a tired engine, so no they don't apply to nitrous.

I understand your point Trev, but an unfair battle, is still an unfair battle :idea:
Only someone on the losing side would ever say a battle was unfair. ;) :idea:

once people are set in their ways/beliefs, they seldom ever change. So for those constantly pointing out the negatives on nitrous, I don't waste my time on them. Although on the other hand, I can totally understand why you have to do so.
It's my lifes work to convince them of the error of their ways. :beatstick:

Bah, but nitrous costs about 4 times as much as a litre of fuel!! :lol:
:lol: Not for much longer, even if that was relevent. :evil:

Yes, but I was referring to being more responsive to what it originally was ;)
So am I.

I'd like to learn what instances these are, sir... :redface: Please tell me which instances this rule doesn't apply...
Higher compression for one, as that improves the efficiency of a NA engine but over a certain point would not do so on a nitrous engine.

From what I can assume on N/A mods, in essence, just improving the airflow into the engine and out of it, here is how I think these mods help nitrous:

Cold Air Intake - slightly reduces inlet air temps (although probably not enough to matter when nitrous is injected anyway)
Bored throttle body/intake manidold - I'm not sure...probably nothing under nitrous
Ported head - bit obvious really. But also, rougher ports mix A/F better under nitrous -
Higher compression - ok not the best thing for heavy nitrous use, but it will increase the efficiency of a given jetting :idea: (although I know you're going to say "but it's better to just stick with stock compression and run a larger dose!!" :redface: )
Free flow manifold - Priceless for N/A use and then even better under big nitrous doses - this is correct
Free flow exhaust - Again, bit obvious, but the drawbacks of noise can be annoying - part and parcel of above.
Light flywheel - more torque from nitrous will help turn this baby with more force - a flywheel is a store for energy so putting energy in to it is of little to no benefit under most conditions, and if it were then a heavier one would be better as it would store more energy.
Cams - :lol: I know you wont agree, but the larger duration will allow for more nitrous to enter per revolution, which can be very beneficial at high revs :idea: - Actually this is the best of your points but actually has more benefit at low rpm than high.
Now if you review the points you made, you ruled out most yourself and I've ruled out most that were left, so I'd say you were on a loser from the start with that one.
;)

True, fair enough. But my car has it, so I'm gonna stick my tongue out at you now! :P
LOL

I totally agree, but again, I wasn't comparing N/A to nitrous as that's just not fair. Comparing two N/A cars, if one had a higher peak power figure (which would always be in the top end of the gearing band) against the other, it WILL win a drag :mrgreen:
The WHOLE point of the thread is to COMPARE NA tuning with NITROUS!!!!! :beatstick:

Then if these people want to spend shedloads on N/A mods, then so be it. Put it this way, sir - if kids keep eating fatty mcdonalds meals all the time, then cry on sports day that they came last, isn't it their fault that they didn't bother to take care of themselves and prepare better? As you know, you can try, try and try to give someone good advice, but if they want to do things their way, what else can be done, except to rest in the knowledge that you tried... :idea:
I'm the Jamie Oliver of the nitrous world - what can I say?!?!?! :lol:

Are you referring to my car here? lol, if so, then that's why I left the best to deal with it, while I just cough up some cash :lol:
Yes and a good job you did to, because if you'd been mislead by all those MUPPETS that you've quoted from so far, I hate to think how long your engine WOULDN'T have lasted!!!

Psssh, toasted? More like bullied!! :mrgreen:
LOL

Just kidding mate, you know I like a reasoned debate.
No problem, I know you're up for a good debate. :yes:

All I was trying to point out was that N/A has it's benefits too, but I also mentionned that it's not comparable to Nitrous either...if you want to convey a message over to the ill-informed crowd, you should do the whole turbo/supercharger vs nitrous debate (which i know you've done many times over) as that's a much more interesting, less one-sided debate :lol:
As you say it's all been done over and over and is also covered in my book :banghead:

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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:20 pm 
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Quote:
Now in reall life terms ok NA always is on tap but in all fairness most of time i dont even use the NA power i have on a daily basies or on road so did not see point of having a highly stressed , high compression race tuned engin and if i want to play flick a switch and go like fek :twisted: :twisted: and my engin is now already out performing both me and the rest of my Bike :twisted: :twisted: ,

That about sums it up in a nutshell. 8)

Quote:
Funny remmebr a conversation a few months back , was told ya should have just gone turbo bla bla bla , it awsome ect, funny the said turbo engin after a few weeks went bang big time destroying the engin , guess i won that argument in Nitrous blows ya engin 8)

Hold on that can't be right, it's ONLY nitrous that blows engines up and I'll fignt to the death anyone who says otherwise. :omgrofl:

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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:23 pm 
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Quote:
i think it depends on what engine you´ve got.

Done correctly any engine is fine in my book.

Quote:
i would never ever use the E30 ///M3 engine for N2O! :bow: That´s out of place!

We've just done 3 M3 engines not sure if they were E30s or not but I'd have still done them if they had been.

Quote:
but i´ve got a V12 :D
N/A tuning would be 20k and much more to see some HP.
bear in mind you can get a used stock engine for 0-500 euro with trans, wiring and ECU! it is the cheapest part in my car :bigsmurf:

It's in situations like this where anything but nitrous is insane.

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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 11:32 am 
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the most important factor with nos tuning is that it is completely compatable with ANY car :D
a friend of mine is always swopping cars, he only keeps a car for 12months at maximum
he spends on average £400 everytime he buys a car on performance mods, £300 on an exhaust, £80 on airfilter, £20 on uprated plugs etc
then seems to think hes got another 10bhp :lol:

if he`d listen he would pay £500 once and have upto an extra 150bhp that could be added to any car

to get an extra 100bhp from a turbo`ed stock car means an minimum of a new turbo and atleast a £1500 spend with the other mods required
a supercharged car is the same expense if not more as a turbo`ed car
for most n/a cars a 100bhp power hike is a £5000 expensive and means a very narrow powerband at the top of the rev range
for those with big blocks 4litres and above, a cam kit is going to cost you £250 (single cam) plus on top of that its going to need the carbs/injection setting up to suit and adjustable cam pulleys or offset keys to get the best from it
id say youve just spent over £500 for maybe a 100bhp power rise only on the biggest of engines

ive got the cheap mods done to my engine dont get me wrong
electric fuel pump, fuel regulator, uprated carb, upgraded ignition

plus forged pistons, won indestructable head gaskits and a cam kit for my next block, which werent cheap
these are for when i wanna tripple the engines output after testing a stock block to breaking point

for normal road use nos rules, aint nothing comes close to it

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:14 pm 
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All very true, so you'd think it wouldn't be hard for everyone to understand. :?

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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:38 pm 
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its all down to bad press
you lie often enough to enough people and it becomes fact
was speaking to janet earlier and we agree`d that the world needed a won movie
fast and furious style but with real facts

tom cruise or bruce willis to play you??? :rofl:

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:54 pm 
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:omgrofl: :omgrofl: My choice would be Willis. :omgrofl: :omgrofl:

All very true and 5th Gear "claimed" they were going to tell the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth, however that was a crock of shit, because when I stopped them doing a F&F trick on their demo, showing how nitrous created a huge flame by being blown over a small flame (as propane etc would do - which was what they were using), they cut the whole thing down to the bare bones - BASTARDS!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:17 pm 
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my choice too, aint no one or no thing ever gonna stop bruce :twisted:
kippy ki aa mother f**ker, ahhhh the classis :D
dont know if hollywood would let him drive a 10sec 1000bhp smart car though
would be funny though :rofl:

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PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 1:37 pm 
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mrmoo wrote:
dont know if hollywood would let him drive a 10sec 1000bhp smart car though :rofl:


:omgrofl: :omgrofl: It would probably be bad for his image, even at 1,000 hp. :omgrofl: :omgrofl:

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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 4:03 pm 
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mrmoo wrote:
,...the world needed a won movie
fast and furious style but with real facts


OR...

Seeing as the world seems to buy into mass marketing and sales hype...why not hit back with your own game plan? Target the product to the masses and those idiots who couldn't tell the difference between a WON kit and NOS kit...ok, the problem with forcing nitrous down the throats of the unwise can easily cause problems from all the blown engines they'll have - not nessesarily because of the system, but because of inherent engine failures laying dormant or because the user thought it would be cool to do a full throttle gearshift on gas... :rolleyes:

This can actually be a good thing, that the wrong type of people generally stray away from nitrous anyway. It's the hardcore enthusiasts that you want to hit home to...at least with those lot, all it will take is a 'Loopy' or two to set everyone straight on a forum and educate the masses...personally speaking, for a good while on celica club uk there was a nice-ish feeling about nitrous (ab)use but then after a couple of failures, this brought in fear of it and then because there wasn't nobody like Loopy around to set them straight or defend it, nitrous is back to being regarded as a black art. I still personally get the odd PM here n there from newbies about nitrous, but even then, people still like to presume my engine failure on nitrous, rather than material failure on the stock engine, probably from just driving it too hard.

I'm not sure why I'm saying all of this. I guess it's because I understand where Trev's coming from, but at the same time, there's so much hassle in trying to win people over, I just like to think that the SMART ones know where to come if they want to run nitrous...the others, well, who gives a damn.

As for the alternative F/I verusus nitrous debate...I think that's a matter of personal opinion among the varied minds out there. Put it this way. I str33t r@ce a lot... no matter which more powerful cars (turbo even) I managed to beat, people would always say "yeah but you used your nos didn't you?", almost as though to say "yeah but you cheated, because the power is temporary and not permanent"...again, with these sorts of people, I pay no attention to...I just make sure my bottle is full and the road is dry, :rofl: (although um...it's been nearly 17 months since I had that feeling :( )


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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 5:21 pm 
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Ron wrote:

As for the alternative F/I verusus nitrous debate...I think that's a matter of personal opinion among the varied minds out there. Put it this way. I str33t r@ce a lot... no matter which more powerful cars (turbo even) I managed to beat, people would always say "yeah but you used your nos didn't you?", almost as though to say "yeah but you cheated, because the power is temporary and not permanent"...again, with these sorts of people, I pay no attention to...I just make sure my bottle is full and the road is dry, :rofl: (although um...it's been nearly 17 months since I had that feeling :( )



Ron sir... you need to come down Enfi3ld (A10) when your car is up and running if you want to play... There's so many talkers... you gotta hear the bullsh!t... unbelievable honestly... I just dispatched a 330ci who's owner had the biggest mouth known to man. I kindly just smiled and waved... :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: WON Vs NA tuning
PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 2:44 pm 
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sab wrote:
Ron sir... you need to come down Enfi3ld (A10) when your car is up and running if you want to play... There's so many talkers... you gotta hear the bullsh!t... unbelievable honestly... I just dispatched a 330ci who's owner had the biggest mouth known to man. I kindly just smiled and waved... :lol:

I'm not too far from Enfield, might have to pop over some time. What sort of ride do you have?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 24, 2008 9:01 pm 
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300bhp/ton wrote:
sab wrote:
Ron sir... you need to come down Enfi3ld (A10) when your car is up and running if you want to play... There's so many talkers... you gotta hear the bullsh!t... unbelievable honestly... I just dispatched a 330ci who's owner had the biggest mouth known to man. I kindly just smiled and waved... :lol:

I'm not too far from Enfield, might have to pop over some time. What sort of ride do you have?


Me I got a civic 1.4i for my daily driver, a honda prelude (which has just been sold now and I is going tommorow :cry: ...),

...and a JDM 350z in black! :evil: Thats my nightrider! :)

Will hopefully be juiced up next week... can't wait! :P

What about you dude; what you got?


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