NITROUS OXIDE ( nos / n2o ) advice forum

Back in December 2009 I made the following post, which was effectively ridiculed by a then vocal member of the forum (who thankfully no longer participate here) and in the process he presented what he 'claimed' to be pertinent information he'd gleaned from other 'scientific' websites. I was never convinced by his arguments but didn't have time to deal with all the BS at that time. However, after I read a bunch of scientific papers on the subject recently, I'm absolutely CERTAIN that his claims were UTTER RUBBISH.

In the wake of the recent post regarding the claimed 'explosion' (or what should be correctly described as 'rupturing') of a US nitrous bottle in America (that took a man's leg off), which was WRONGLY claimed as being caused by the explosive dissociation of the nitrous bottle contents, my thoughts on the matter of dissociation PRIOR to the combustion process, were revitalised.

The benefits of nitrogen are as follows;

i) Nitrogen aids the combustion process by acting as a shock absorber/combustion damper.

ii) Without nitrogen the combustion would be a violent uncontrollable explosion.

iii) My most recent acquisition of knowledge on the combustion process, states that without nitrogen the combustion process would result in much less power, because nitrogen expands MUCH more than any of the other gases involved in the process when heated.

Since a nitrous charge has a lower percentage of nitrogen than a NA charge, that would point to there being LESS power being made from a nitrous charge.

'On the face of it' there is only the cooling that's different between a turbo inlet charge and a nitrous inlet charge.
However, if we look a little deeper there are TWO other factors;

i) The one Brain suggested (O being more reactive than O2), which although I agree it's likely to be a contributor, I doubt it would have anywhere near as much impact on power as my next suggestion.

ii) It takes energy to create the bond between oxygen & nitrogen to form Nitrous oxide (how much energy I don't know but I'm sure that info will be on the net somewhere) and when those bonds are broken, there is a release of that energy in the form of heat, which is why the breakdown of nitrous to oxygen and nitrogen is called an EXOTHERMIC reaction. For anyone who is not familiar with that term, it means the reaction results in the production of heat.

After reviewing all the information relevant to the differences in turbo and nitrous combustion and applying some of my UN-common sense logic, I've come to the following conclusion (although I could be wrong);

i) Since the heat of the exothermic reaction is generated at an atomic level (at the core of the nitrogen & oxygen atoms themselves),I believe it is likely to be at a more intense/higher level and/or be more effective at heating the nitrogen atoms, than the external heat from combustion would be capable of. I would also expect the heat from the exothermic reaction to be more instant than the heat transfer from the combustion process would be.

ii) If I'm right, then it follows that there would be a substantial increase in nitrogen expansion at the INSTANT that combustion or the decomposition of nitrous occurs (whichever occurs first, as I'm still undecided on that matter at higher levels of nitrous use) and this would have a MAJOR EFFECT on power production, because it would occur at the time when it would be most effective. Since making this statement I've also realised that it could happen so quickly or start to happen so soon, that it could also be detrimental to power at some point.

iii) After further consideration it also follows that it would be IMPOSSIBLE to replicate this instant rise in heat at such a crucial time, by using any other means and would therefore fit the bill as being the DIFFERENCE between nitrous power and any other power.

iv) It might also explain why there becomes a point where retarding the timing becomes ineffectual and above a certain power level does not need further retarding, because as with many factors of life, there is probably a point of diminishing returns, where the heat from the exothermic reaction can't heat the TOTAL nitrogen content by a substantially greater amount.

v) It might also (almost certainly would) explain why we actually NEED to retard the timing, when it APPEARS not to be the case, for the same level of power generated by means of a turbo and not as we've been lead to believe until now, that it's due to the imbalance of oxygen and nitrogen.

vi) This would also explain a concern I had after reading what a SMALL percentage change there was between a NA and a nitrous charge, because I found it hard to believe that such a SMALL change could cause such a big change in the rate of combustion.

vii) If the heat from the exothermic decomposition of nitrous IS THE CAUSE of the HUGE differential between the amount of oxygen used in a nitrous motor and a turbo motor, then the heat rise to achieve that obviously has to be equally HUGE and it's occurring virtually INSTANTLY and it has to be the majority of the cause of the rise in combustion pressure, so there's no wonder we need to retard the timing to avoid combustion pressure going through the roof.

As stated above, I could be wrong as this is only applying pure logic to a vast amount of experience but IF it's right and IF I'm the first to propose this theory (which is unlikely as the scientists at Ricardo's probably knew all this way back), then I claim it as THE LANGFIELD THEORY OF NITROUS COMBUSTION.

Since making this post and others relating to the potential of dissociation BEFORE combustion, I've been made aware (by Johnny Barb) of a VERY interesting site of a company that offers engine analysis systems. This is probably the singularly most interesting and informative site I've ever seen, so please take a GOOD LONG look at the following pages and then review my post.

http://www.tfxengine.com/NitrousEngineData.html

http://www.tfxengine.com/SuperchargedEngineData.html

http://www.tfxengine.com/NaturallyAspir ... eData.html

http://www.tfxengine.com/NitroEngineData.html

http://www.tfxengine.com/software7.html

I’ll be back with a analysis after you’ve all chewed it over for a few days.

Here's a few clues;

1) Compare the relative positions of the pressure and heat traces of nitrous against ANY other form of combustion!!!

2) Take a close look at when/where the temperature starts to rise.

3) For the record, I have in on good authority that under certain conditions, nitrous oxide DOES DISSOCIATE PRIOR TO IGNITION.

To the 'know it all' who claimed it was IMPOSSIBLE

Hi Trev

There is a LOT of very interesting stuff there

I think the problem most people including me have is that to REALLY understand it all, you need a huge amount of knowledge of basic Nitrous theory and more importantly practice....

I tend to understand it much better when you explain it...lol...maybe thats my age or maybe its being old enough to know when to listen to a world expert...you...

If you say you have written a new Nitrous law.... thats good enough for me as to be honest I cannot think of anyone worldwide with your knowledge, and to argue against your law, people would need to be practicing Nitrous experts and not just armchair theorists....

When I was in Top Fuel, we used to have a saying about people who would come up to us and tell us how to run a Fueller.... we used to say "They TALK a good engine"... when in real life they had absolutely no idea lol...

I suspect there are a LOT of people like that in the Nitrous world...they TALK a good nitrous system or theory but have absolutely no idea either

Personally I prefer to listen to the World expert on Nitrous.....YOU

All the best Brett

Trev,

Check your email, just sent you something.

Also, I've got emails I sent to you talking about this going back to 2008.

Very interesting results there.... seems the nitrous burn more resembles the N/A combustion, surprisingly BOTH having higher intake temps than forced induction so can only guess the FI engine has a very effective intercooler.
Judging by the combustion spike, it would indeed point to some dissassociation occurring before combustion, then that combustion spike generates the heat required for the secondary burn which would be the main nitrous load.
Also very indicative of enriched oxygen enviroment with the rapid burn compared to the others and the excessive heat.... Interstingly, the heat remains at a very high level despite the plummeting cylinder pressure, indicating the longer the burn goes on, the more oxygen enriched it becomes, if it wasnt the temperature would drop in line with the pressure as pressure drops incur cooling

Now im gonna make the assumption here that this was using an american nitrous kit, and i would love to see tha same data for a WON kit. Purely as i have a hunch that the spikeyness of the burn is caused by inconsistant nitrous delivery with varying densities as i beleive the test is very indicative of just how bad some systems are!!
I would have expected to see much lower intake temps than the FI if liquid nitrous was being injected.

Steve

Just a brief response due to my injuries but you're on the money with the above statement.

I have some VERY INTERESTING information to report;

1) I was speaking with a recently new customer who lives in Finland yesterday. He owns a high end spec. Busa (250 HP NA), that was previously fitted with a NOS kit, which he's just upgraded to a REVO system.

2) It turns out after my discussions with him last night, that he seems to be the best equipped customer I've ever had, as he not only has the latest high tech dyno but he also has one of these;
http://www.kistler.com/kr_kr-kr/2_3_eng ... stler.html
which allows him to monitor IN CHAMBER combustion processes.

3) If that was good enough, he also has PER CYLINDER AFR & EGT logging ability (which may or may not be an integral feature of the Kistler gear), so he's able to see the end results of the distribution achieved by the nitrous systems he's used.

4) Last week he carried out the first dyno runs using the REVO system and reported the following information;

i) The power delivery was UNBELIEVABLY SMOOTH, in comparison to ANYTHING they'd seen before.

ii) The combustion temperatures and pressures were UNBELIEVABLY SMOOTH, in comparison to ANYTHING they'd seen before.

iii) The per cylinder mixture accuracy was MUCH MORE CONSISTENT between cylinders, than ANYTHING they'd seen before, to the extent that the nitrous distribution was PERFECT.

SO NO SURPRISES THERE THEN!!!!


I've been considering the purchase of an IN CHAMBER monitoring system but as I've now had an open invitation to visit this customer, I've decided that's a much better option, as he's already familiar with how best to use the equipment and how to interpret the results, so that will speed up my understanding of any tests we do.
Furthermore, as he has a high end Busa and Busa's are the main market for our bike product range, it makes sense to do the R&D on his bike, so all in all it would be plain stupid to pass up this GOLDEN opportunity, so I'm not.

As soon as my foot is fixed (life circumstances permitting), I'll be flying off to Finland to carry out the most advanced nitrous R&D program EVER and I 'MAY' report back what I discover.

The reason I say 'MAY' is for the same reason I won't be posting graphs and actual figures from my customers dyno results (unfortunately) and that's because he's asked me NOT to do so.

The reason's he's asked me not to do so are;
1) Such knowledge is EXTREMELY valuable
2) It's cost him a HUGE amount of money to buy the equipment and carry out the R&D to learn it
3) He doesn't want any of his competitors to benefit from it

All of which are VERY understandable!!!!

However, what I will most certainly do with the knowledge I learn from my own R&D program with him, is advance the technology in my product design to further enhance the performance of my systems, so ALL my customers will benefit from that.

One final point of interest, is that we'll also be testing my next REVOLUTIONARY concept on his bike; The Semi Sealed Induction System and if that all goes as I expect, it will then be fitted to Cecil Towner's BRAND NEW Busa Pro Mod bike to showcase just how ADVANCED WON technology is, over and above the utter ANTIQUATED GARBAGE offered be every other company.

No doubt even this technological advance will be ridiculed by some FOOLS but they'll be the last to learn and it'll be the hard way.

BTW my previous post was pipped to the post (no pun intended), by a post from Batty who THINKS he's really smart (as can be seen by some of his previous posts), stating something to the effect that I was 'wrong'.

I deleted the post because he was warned some time ago, that I wouldn't allow him and his kind to waste my time with baseless inane posts, but I wish I'd actually left it now and just ridiculed him for being such an IDIOT, especially as I was due to post such convincing independent evidence to prove it!!!!

Can you not post it back up so we can see what the biker boy said ???

I'm finding this thread quite interesting

The info on the website is very informative. The fact that its possible to measure individual cylinder data is great. The fact that this stuff can be measured and recorded during a pass on the strip is fantastic.. This system will record not only base data. But it will also show up any variances on a specific engines build performance. Be it brand new or part worn eh??

This MUST be the ultimate way to tune ANY engine ??

I'm gobsmacked that such a bit of kit is available outside the multi million / dollar / Euro R&D houses of major manufacturers ??

The Guy in Holland must be minted ??

The stuff of dreams!!! How far we've come since the heady days in F1 where the mechanic would dribble brasso down the intakes to bed a motor down all by ear!!!

The only trouble i can see is with all the technology advances, is with motors becoming ever lighter, the mechanical strength needed to run big nitrous shots will dissappear.

Double edged sword to everything i guess

Steve

I'm not concerned about any lack of strength, as there will always be sections of the power and/or torque curve that can be elevated to the same peak levels that will result in improved performance without ANY increase in load etc. to the engine. However, what I am concerned about (and we've encountered it a few times already), is the ECU control getting so all powerful that it prevents the nitrous activating as we want.
The only answer to that has been to either disable the appropriate sensor and/or make the accuracy of the nitrous delivery match that of the ECU control.

I don't want to get too heavy on this matter again (because I'm still not up to too much typing) but nitrogen (or the relative lack of it), is without doubt a major contributor to the whole scenario and that's all I'll say at this time and anyway, I believe I've already covered that in more detail in previous threads.

Sticking to the core of this thread I thought I post an extract from the INDEPENDENT HIGHLY INFORMED source, who confirmed my belief about nitrous dissociating prior to combustion;
"For example if you had a 7:1 CR with nitrous the dissociation temperature (before ignition occurred) would never be reached. If CR was 15:1 the dissociation temperature would be reached before ignition"

Now no doubt Batty will claim this to be a lie (as he's previously called me a liar on a couple of occasions) but I know and I guess most of you know, that I'm NOT a liar and that EVERYTHING on this forum PROVES that to be the case.

Anyone who either thinks I'm a liar or that I'm wrong about anything I post on this forum is a LOSER, because they are missing out on the TRUTH.

I have nothing to gain and everything to lose (including my reputation) by posting anything but solid opinions and hard facts, as anything less would leave me open to being 'PROVED' (as opposed to accused) of being wrong.

Which is backed up by the need to retard ignition, otherwise peak CC pressure would be through the roof and sending the engine on a path to self destruction.

If you look at the previously posted links, these suggest that the dissociation is not complete though, and requires further heat from the combustion itself to further the process, or speed it up, because everything has a time factor.

This i think is where the cosistency of the state of the nitrous being delivered plays its part. To get a smooth burn, the nitrous needs to be all in the same state, liquid or gas. And the spikiness of the burns in the link is possibly caused by a partial liquid/gas delivery, so everything is happening at different rates. If the main load of nitrous was in the same state then the combustion process would be more even which would explain why WON kits outperform the others and why they dont cause damage when operated in the correct manner.

Now im not saying the present systems are perfect, and ive never heard Trev imply it, but with access to such equipment, should see the off the shelve kits get a lot closer to perfect delivery which in turn means more reliable horsepower
Steve

Autoignition temp of petrol 246C,diesel 210C

If you add nitrous to a diesel engine, without adding more fuel,nothing happens.Diesels run at cr's in excess of 18:1

dissociation temp of nitrous stated as various 575F or C ...no one ever appears sure.
However nitrous has a high activation energy barrier and requires temps >1000C for thermal decomposition.This is obviously lowered due to the increasing pressure,but so are the above autoignition temps.

Releases 81.6kj/mole,but requires 250kj/mole to initiate decomposition. Produces temps in the region of 1500C

Hi Nige, theres one key piece of information you've missed out on....
Hazardous Decomposition
Products
At elevated temperatures, nitrous oxide decomposes into nitrogen and oxygen, the rate of
decomposition being appreciable at about 1112°F (600°C). Nitrous oxide exposed to fire or other
intense heat source may decompose violently.

The word appreciable means, that it decomposes at lower temperatures, once it has acquired enough energy to do so. That energy can be absorbed even at room temperature. It decomposes en mass at the elevated temperatures but low level decomposition occurs at much lower temps. Add to the fact the nitrous will be hitting hot surfaces (valves etc) and that rate will increase. If you look at the graphs in the links above, this can clearly be seen as a temp spike compared to the N/A burn and also the pressure spike, so we know it happens... The main bulk of the nitrous is decomposed rapidly at combustion temps, this is where the power comes from.
Another point you've missed is certain hydrogens act as a catalyst for the decomposition which will accelerate the rate of decomposition at lower temperatures. Fuel particles are hydrocarbons, so theres every chance the fuel also acts partly as a catalyst.
If none of the above happened then we would have no real need to retard ignition timing beyond a couple of degrees, as we'd only be compensating for the increased burn rate due to higher cylinder pressures as per turbo engines, and not the even further increased burn rate that only comes from oxygen enriched enviroments.

The point you raise about diesel engines, is good on the surface, but, if we had results for in combustion monitoring as this thread has been about, its almost a certainty that you would see the same results
before ignition. Further reason that it makes much less difference with a diesel is the fact that the fuel is not present in the air charge untill ignition critical temps are reached, thus less chance of a catalyst effect. As a diesel engine is by nature, more robust than a petrol, any effects of a weakened mixture and increased cylinder pressure are far less noticeable, diesels are, after all, designed to run lean. Many truck engines had no butterfly, the power output was governed purely by the amount of diesel injected, the aircharge was completely unrestricted, cant get much leaner than that

As a lot of research on nitrous use on internal combustions engines is quite dated, it can also be taken that the equipment being used to obtain this data wasnt available. Any assumption can only be based on the facts available. Even then, nothing is ever 100% certain, because theres always other factors that havent even been considered.
Take another, long look at the data provided in the links above, and see if you can come up with a better explanation, bearing in mind Ive waded thru hundreds of internet pages and that one word "appreciable" comes up an awfull lot. Also take a look at how many catalyst experiments there are involving hydrogens, yet alone oxygen radicals, all of which are proven to change decomposition rates. Add to that, no-one is saying ALL of the nitrous is decomposed prior to ignition, just a percentage asnd tell us what you think then

Steve

Should I be concerned??? My engine is Nikasil lined I believe

Actually Trev, the point was aimed more at varying desities of nitrous being delivered, perhaps i worded it wrong. If the nitrous has an even density at injection, then it follows that you have an even burn. Even distibution per cycle is a virtual impossibility using pulsed technology, by nature of how it works, which affects WON kits just the same. WON on the other hand, deliver better consistant densities
The point about retarding ignition is exactly because decomposition occurs prior to ignition. As with turbos, the aim is not to have runaway PEAK combustion pressures, but a higher average over the whole power stroke. Substantially increasing peak pressure requires substantial engine strengthening. The kind of use seen mostly with nitrous, doesnt have that level of engine build, even in race apps. To get away with extremely high pressures you would need an engine capable of handling nitro.
Very rarely will you see a turbo app with more than 2 degrees retard, so my thinking, not fact, is that the more nitrous we use, the more pre ignition decomposed nitrous there is available, hence the need to further reduce timing advance to keep peak pressure under control, otherwise we start flexing the piston crown and try to destroy the crank.
That was my thinking and interpretation of the nitrous burn link posted

Steve

Just as an aside on timing.... I seem to recall you saying there comes a point in nitrous levels, where timing actually needs to be advanced. If you follow on from the pre ignition decomposition, there also comes a point where the N/A air content is displaced to such a degree that the engine relies on the decomposed nitrous for enough oxygen to initiate combustion. At this point the timing would need to be advanced again as the combustion pressure would start to drop below that of a N/A burn.
That at least seems a logical explanation

Steve

The engines refferred to are relatively low capacity (bike) engines using a relatively large dosage on an almost permanent basis so the heat increase due to nitrous would be considerably higher than a larger capacity engine using similar size hits and infrequent use.
road going car/bike engines will never see the kind of abuse that a drag motor gets so i doubt you have much cause for concern unless its a race only motor adding 70%+ of base power