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 Post subject: Cause of backfires
PostPosted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 9:34 pm 
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This is the potential consequences of a badly design kit (this one is a Zex) that causes a substantial differential between nitrous and fuel delivery time;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYf5OIQG ... re=related

It grieves me to think how many people I could have saved from such trouble, if I could convince everyone that we're the ONLY company that understand ALL the issues related to nitrous use and the only company to offer design solutions for them.

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Last edited by Noswizard on Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 6:47 am 
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what is backfire caused from?


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:38 pm 
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Backfires can be caused by a number of problems but most of them boil down to the same end cause, too much nitrous reaches the engine before adequate fuel gets there. Most of the causes of this problem are due to the manufacturers not either knowing or caring about the consequences of the components they sell in their kits.
They include;
1) Bad component choice (eg. the use of braided hose)
2) Bad kit design (eg. the length of braided hose used)
3) Component failure (eg. a fuel solenoid failure)

But it can also be caused by operator error.

Dealing with the choice of components first;
1) All nitrous supply pipe is ONLY best suited to power levels close to the maximum that the pipe can flow. The bigger the differential between how much the pipe can flow and how much the metering jet/s can flow the greater the risk of a backfire.
This problem usually shows up when using a dyno. Without a purge, the first few shots (exact number depends on jet sizes and run time) the engine runs rich and makes little to no power, so people assume that's how all runs will be and make mixture adjustments to lean it out or crank up the power. However, eventually the gas in the pipe is replaced with liquid (equals more nitrous) and then the combination of the hard hit caused by US kits and the now leaner mix, results in a backfire.
2) Metering jet location is vital for a number of reasons, one of which is preventing a backfire. When a pair of solenoids are opened in a US kit, a HUGE amount of nitrous fills the pipework leading to the nozzles (and metering jets) very quickly but the fuel takes a great deal longer to do the same thing. This results in nitrous reaching the engine long before the fuel, causing the engine to lean out and backfire.
Now you can get away with this situation on a small dose of nitrous but as you go higher and higher, the lean hit gets bigger and worse. Having jets located at the solenoid outlets substantially reduce the flow of nitrous and therefore the risk of a backfire.
3) Supply pipes between solenoids and nozzles also contribute to the problem. The longer and bigger volume they are the slower the fuel pipe fills up and although the same applies to the nitrous, the net result is a BIGGER DIFFERENTIAL in the time it takes between both reaching the engine and that makes the problem worse.

Moving on to the bad kit design;
1) To maximise convenience and profit ALL other companies keep as many components as possible common to all their kits. They use the same bore and same length nitrous supply pipe, regardless of the power the customer wants and the type of car. They use the same length solenoid to nozzle pipes regardless of power and type of car. Now that wouldn't be so bad if they were the best for the majority of application but they're NOT even the best components for ANY job and they are too long for ALL applications.
2) Relying on one pair of solenoids for a 4 cylinder and 2 sets for an 8 cylinder engine results in long pipes with a large volume (plus usually uneven lengths with other kits) but by increasing the number of solenoids to at least a pair feeding a pair of cylinders, allows the pipe lengths to be minimised.
Now how many companies do you know of that offer such a system design??? lol

The final contribution to backfires caused by Nitrous companies is component failure;
1) If a fuel solenoid fails to open then you have the ultimate lean out, resulting in not only manifold destruction but usually engine destruction. Only Pulsoids are put through an intensive bench test program prior to dispatch, as all other solenoids are mass produced and "assumed" to be OK. The test program we put our Pulsoids through would destroy 99% of other solenoids in a small fraction of the time, yet Pulsoids are in better condition after the test than they were before, because they are effectively "run in".
2) Fuel solenoids can fail to open due to bad build quality, bad coil, unsuitable plunger seat seal material expanding.

Anyone with any sense can see from the above details that ONLY WON systems are DESIGNED to minimise the chances of an engine backfire and as a consequence our customers never suffer from a product induced backfire.

However there is one other factor that can cause even a well design and correctly fitted system to experience a backfire and that's operator error;
1) Operator error becomes a bigger concern the more power you add with nitrous. If you activate the system too early in the rpm range (under unnatural loads), on a small dose of nitrous, you'll get away with it BUT if you do the same thing with a big dose, then you can kiss your induction system and possibly your engine goodbye.
2) Nitrous combustion does not 'like' being restrained, it 'likes' the engine to be free to rev easily, so the pistons can get away from the combustion force and so the combustion gases can get out of the chamber in to the exhaust quickly enough. If the engine is under unnatural loads (like on a brake dyno or climbing a hill in top gear), then the pistons can't move away from the combustion forces quickly enough and the exhaust flow isn't adequate enough to get all the waste gases out of the chamber, before the inlet valve opens again and BOOM you have your backfire as the fresh inlet charge is ignited by the burning exhaust gases.

One perfect scenario that often occurs on a dyno is as follows and should be avoided at all costs;
1) Operator exceeds the desired start rpm
2) Operator lets the engine slow down to correct start point and immediately activates full throttle.
3) Instant BOOM!!!!

The issue here is that the engine components are decelerating and will be even more reluctant to accelerate away from the increased force caused by the nitrous. All nitrous dyno runs should be started WITHOUT NITROUS (unless you have a progressive system with a low start power) and the nitrous system should ONLY be activated once the engine has OBVIOUSLY started to accelerate.
It would also be wise to try a short test run from mid rpm to ensure the system activates correctly and the engine is willing to accept the nitrous, because although this will not ensure the run will be OK from lower rpm, it will help avoid any obvious issues that could cause damage.

I hope that's answered your question. ;)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 8:46 pm 
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jtrejo wrote:
what is backfire caused from?
In addition to Trev's post, in the past I believe I've seen backfires caused due to the wrong spark plug heat range.

I believe this was the case because after 5 or 6 seconds of a fairly large shot (250HP), I would get the pop-pop-pop out the intake (quite loud). I believe the mixture was entering the cylinder and hitting the hot plug while the intake valve was still open, causing the combustion to burn back into the intake manifold. A bad scenario, obviously.

Since this was a thermal event, even after I let off the nitrous I was unable to finish the run because the plugs were still too hot, so even without nitrous the mixture would try to ignite back into the intake. (If it were the exhaust gasses lighting the intake mixture as Trev suggested, then this wouldn't have continue to combust into the intake manifold when the nitrous was off.)

I've never really tried to cure the problem (I've limited myself to 150HP for the time being for other reasons), but I suspect a colder plug would have done the trick. Of course it's possible I also had some other hot spot as well, I never really fully investigated because I'm not using that much nitrous any more. Well for now...

-Bob C.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 10:04 pm 
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Yes that's quite likely Bob, although I had restricted myself to the type of backfire that happens the instant the nitrous is activated and therefore didn't give that any thought.

There are other types of backfires with other causes (that happen some period after activation) and there are still some backfires that I'm not sure of the cause myself yet, so my previous post by no means covers ALL eventualities, just the most common.

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 Post subject: Re: Cause of backfires
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:05 pm 
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http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Nitr ... 158212.htm

Another bad backfire! Look how long it takes the hood scoop to come back to earth!


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 Post subject: Re: Cause of backfires
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:30 pm 
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This is all very sad seeing such alarming failures. :evil:

BTW I just checked my original post and spotted a couple of minor but important typos, so you might like to take another look, as one typo gave the reverse info to what I intended.

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 Post subject: Re: Cause of backfires
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 6:44 pm 
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Should the original post read... This is the consequence of a poorly designed kit?


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 Post subject: Re: Cause of backfires
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 7:04 pm 
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I didn't go back to my very first post prior to my last post and I've just realised I've repeated my original sentiments, so I'll be deleting the majority of that in a mo.

Can you show me that extract by using the quote facility please, as I don't seem able to find it.

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 Post subject: Re: Cause of backfires
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:11 pm 
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Noswizard wrote:
This is the potential consequences of a badly design kit (this one is a Zex) that causes a substantial differential between nitrous and fuel delivery time;
Should you have removed " potential" from the above??? I'm just guessing, i'm not a very good proof reader. trying to find your typo!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYf5OIQG ... re=related

It grieves me to think how many people I could have saved from such trouble, if I could convince everyone that we're the ONLY company that understand ALL the issues related to nitrous use and the only company to offer design solutions for them.

Regards


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 Post subject: Re: Cause of backfires
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:20 pm 
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While on the subject of backfiring, I saw this on the 'net..

http://www.nearlygood.com/video/nitrousexplosion.html

Dunno what kit it is, or what caused it, but it made quite a big bang!

:?


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 Post subject: Re: Cause of backfires
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 9:40 pm 
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1quickchevy2 wrote:
Noswizard wrote:
This is the potential consequences of a badly design kit (this one is a Zex) that causes a substantial differential between nitrous and fuel delivery time;
Should you have removed " potential" from the above??? I'm just guessing, i'm not a very good proof reader. trying to find your typo!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYf5OIQG ... re=related

It grieves me to think how many people I could have saved from such trouble, if I could convince everyone that we're the ONLY company that understand ALL the issues related to nitrous use and the only company to offer design solutions for them.

Regards

No that's right and the reason you can't find the mistake, is because I've rectified it already and I also meant the 2nd post. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Cause of backfires
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:18 pm 
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http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Esne ... 163390.htm

Here is a video of a little nitrous backfire. :shock:


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 Post subject: Re: Cause of backfires
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 10:40 pm 
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Trev, what are your thoughts on purging the fuel system through the intake - a practice I'm seeing more and more often here in Australia and in the US.


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 Post subject: Re: Cause of backfires
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:30 pm 
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rico91stang wrote:
http://videos.streetfire.net/video/Esner-vs-McCraryTexas-of_163390.htm

Here is a video of a little nitrous backfire. :shock:


That's SERIOUSLY scary!!!!

He was lucky to get out of that alive.

It would be unwise to suggest any definite cause for this episode but here are a few observations;

1) It seemed a bit sluggish off the line
2) There were no exhaust flames for the first part of the track
3) This was followed by substantial exhaust flames
4) The flames went out just before the explosion

It would obviously help to know the full spec of the car and to have the data logs but based on it being your everyday multi stage set up I'd suggest the following as the most likely scenario that lead to the explosion based on the above observations;

1) He launched on an excessively rich first stage and then activated a leaner 2nd stage
2) Either the fuel supply failed from one or both of the systems for any number of reasons or he activated a 3rd stage and the fuel solenoids failed to open.

That's a major problem with multiple stage set ups, each stage multiplies the risk of a component failure, especially with generic solenoids, plus getting each stage to work in conjunction with the others is also a pain.

Obviously a single progressive stage simplifies all that. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Cause of backfires
PostPosted: Wed Nov 19, 2008 11:32 pm 
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2rismo wrote:
Trev, what are your thoughts on purging the fuel system through the intake - a practice I'm seeing more and more often here in Australia and in the US.


Could you elaborate on that to make sure we're talking about the same thing before I reply please?

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 Post subject: Re: Cause of backfires
PostPosted: Thu Nov 20, 2008 5:26 am 
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Noswizard wrote:
2rismo wrote:
Trev, what are your thoughts on purging the fuel system through the intake - a practice I'm seeing more and more often here in Australia and in the US.


Could you elaborate on that to make sure we're talking about the same thing before I reply please?


I'm starting to see guys that I know operate a typical nitrous purge prior to a run also hitting a switch or switches inside the cabin before going into stage that the drivers tell me purges the fuel system (in relation to the wet nitrous system they're using). It doesn't present itself as purging nitrous through the intake would and it appears as if they have to manually hold the throttle part way open and bring the revs up prior to this action (I assume to avoid flooding/stalling the engine.

This is happening with a couple of the quickest nitrous powered sedan/street cars in the country (3300lbs/7.7-sec/175mph) approx.

Cheers,
Adrian


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 Post subject: Re: Cause of backfires
PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 12:28 pm 
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Sorry Adrian but I didn't get time to respond to this before my trip to Malta (for a 2nd time, as my first response vanished before it posted), so here it is now.

I've NEVER agreed with purging the nitrous lines, because that just aggravates what is already a dangerous issue with ALL other brands of nitrous kit and purging is just a band-aid for their badly designed products.

It's much better to design the system correctly in the first place to minimise any gas that is in the system (along with resolving any other issues) and then PRIME BOTH the nitrous AND fuel, by either using nitrous in the burnout or in a dummy launch, as I always used to do.

However, if you are stuck with a BADLY designed kit as the guys you are mentioning are, then purging the fuel side of the kit will be a HUGE benefit in preventing the initial lean hit (and consequential backfires), that purging just the nitrous aggravates BUT once again its just a band-aid for a badly design kit.

You'd think that by now most people would realise how badly designed they ALL are by ALL the band-aids that are NEEDED to overcome all the risks and problems they cause/suffer without them!!! :idea: :idea: :idea: :idea:

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 Post subject: Re: Cause of backfires
PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 8:59 pm 
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Thanks for the reply, Trev. I had missed it in my travels and now that I've had time to digest what you've said, I agree wholeheartedly.

I'm going to attempt to educate one of these guys on the many benefits of a WON system ASAP as if you saw the caveman stuff they're using to run the numbers they are, you'd likely fall over. Don't get me wrong, they're not hurting engines, but that's only because (in my view) they're compensating for the flaws by enough to avoid any immediate damage.

One Wilson kit comprising one plate, one nitrous solenoid and one fuel solenoid with an Edelbrock controller and a leaf-sprung (std rear suspension car) that weighs more than 3000lbs is getting down the lane in 7.99 @ 174mph is impressive but god only knows what it could do.


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 Post subject: Re: Cause of backfires
PostPosted: Tue Dec 16, 2008 9:14 pm 
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2rismo wrote:
that weighs more than 3000lbs is getting down the lane in 7.99 @ 174mph is impressive but god only knows what it could do.

That's my argument when ANYONE tells me that existing US nitrous kits work well. How can anyone know that until they've done back to back testing on the same vehicle with a CORRECTLY designed system.

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 Post subject: Re: Cause of backfires
PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 7:38 pm 
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Here was another bad day at the track.

http://videos.streetfire.net/video/wors ... 164337.htm


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 Post subject: Re: Cause of backfires
PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 8:10 pm 
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WHAT THE HELL?!?!

WHAT THE HELL WAS ALL THAT?!?!

Shame the start is missing though.

Looks like he had a pack of fire crackers under the bonnet.

I've never seen anything like that before & it's a shame we don't know more about what was involved.

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 Post subject: Re: Cause of backfires
PostPosted: Sun Dec 21, 2008 9:01 pm 
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Noswizard wrote:
WHAT THE HELL?!?!

WHAT THE HELL WAS ALL THAT?!?!

Shame the start is missing though.

Looks like he had a pack of fire crackers under the bonnet.

I've never seen anything like that before & it's a shame we don't know more about what was involved.


I believe it started as a fuel fire.


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 Post subject: Re: Cause of backfires
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 5:38 am 
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Magnesium intake manifold according to members of another board.


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 Post subject: Re: Cause of backfires
PostPosted: Mon Dec 22, 2008 11:50 am 
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If that was the case it would be a VERY EXPENSIVE item and I've never even heard of a Pro Mod that has gone to such an expensive material.

I've heard of magnesium being used for crank cases on racing motorcycles back in the dark ages but it wouldn't be a wise choice for a manifold, because it would go up in flames in the event of a backfire.

I'd also expect it to go up in one HUGE fire ball, rather than all those fire cracker type mini explosions - VERY STRANGE!!!!

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