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 Post subject: when to spray
PostPosted: Sat Jan 27, 2018 12:04 am 
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Hello all .... my main issues revolve around the limited weight of nitrous I can carry 2x 5lb bottles and the amount of time I need to be spraying for( ideally 60 seconds.) There is ample data and information around for drag racers who spray for only a short time but nothing that I can find for extended time on the bottle, Some information on LSR racing course consists of 2 miles to accelerate then 3 timed miles over which your average speed is calculated. you are permitted to achieve your highest average speed at any of the timed miles.due to this fact I need to be at near maximum revs (11K) naturally aspirated before I hit the timed section.
My questions 1. when is the optimum time to start spraying ,as early as possible and trying to reach my target speed at mile 4 or spraying as late as possible and trying to achieve my target speed at mile 6? your thoughts
2. At what point does the contents and pressure in the bottles begin to drop off substantially as a percentage of the total contents causing a corresponding drop in power?
For your information 2x 5lb bottles ( limited to actual space motorcycle) jet sizes for 140 hp total 4x 35 hp,bottle temps around 35deg C, nitrous ramped up over 10 seconds starting @ 30% to 100% in an effort to maintain traction ( salt lake surface coefficient of friction aprox 0.5), wet system added fuel methanol. my calculations for usage are 100 hp = 1.2 lbs every 10 seconds is this correct?
cheers.

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 Post subject: Re: when to spray
PostPosted: Tue Jan 30, 2018 11:17 pm 
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hawkwind racing wrote:
Hello all ....
Good to see you back after sooo long. :yes:

my main issues revolve around the limited weight of nitrous I can carry 2x 5lb bottles and the amount of time I need to be spraying for( ideally 60 seconds.) There is ample data and information around for drag racers who spray for only a short time but nothing that I can find for extended time on the bottle, Some information on LSR racing course consists of 2 miles to accelerate then 3 timed miles over which your average speed is calculated. you are permitted to achieve your highest average speed at any of the timed miles.due to this fact I need to be at near maximum revs (11K) naturally aspirated before I hit the timed section.
My questions 1. when is the optimum time to start spraying ,as early as possible and trying to reach my target speed at mile 4 or spraying as late as possible and trying to achieve my target speed at mile 6? your thoughts
That's a difficult one to actual understand the question, never mind give an answer!!!! I've NO personal experience to call on (although I can call on a World record holder for his advice, if I need to resort to it) but to help me give you an answer without doing that for now, why do you think there would be a difference? There are one two factors for sure, that could make it beneficial to use it as soon as possible but if you tell me the reasons you asked the question, I should be able to give you a more accurate and comprehensive answer.

2. At what point does the contents and pressure in the bottles begin to drop off substantially as a percentage of the total contents causing a corresponding drop in power?
That depends on a number of factors;
1) The amount of nitrous you are flowing (jet size), 2) The position of the bottles, 3) The spec of the bottles, 4) The type and colour of coating or lack of one (which I'm sure will surprise you), 5) the ambient temperature
There are a number of ways you can get better results, than using a 'basic' system, even a WON 'basic' system.


For your information 2x 5lb bottles ( limited to actual space motorcycle) jet sizes for 140 hp total 4x 35 hp,bottle temps around 35deg C, nitrous ramped up over 10 seconds starting @ 30% to 100% in an effort to maintain traction ( salt lake surface coefficient of friction aprox 0.5), wet system added fuel methanol.
Although all those factors will affect the consumption, they are factors that you are 'stuck with', so you need to address factors that you can alter to achieve optimum results, which are some of those I listed above, like bottle mounting position (if possible), bottle coating type and/or colour or lack of it. You might also be able to benefit from optimising the efficiency of the system (if there is any room for improvement), to ensure you get the maximum results from the limited amount of nitrous you can carry.

my calculations for usage are 100 hp = 1.2 lbs every 10 seconds is this correct?
That sounds rather high to me but as I haven't had to provide the correct figure for many years, it's slipped my mind for now, so I'll have to check my records to give you the correct figure but again whatever the figure is, you can't change it so it's of no real consequence to what you are trying to achieve.
The key things to aim for are; Consistent pressure and Maximum efficiency.
If you can either send me pictures of all parts of your system fitted to the bike, to enquiries@noswizard.com or better still, post them here and I'd be happy to assess them and give you as much advice, on how to achieve your goals as possible.


cheers.

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Trev (The WIZARD of NOS)

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 Post subject: Re: when to spray
PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:21 am 
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Hi Trev yes a long time lol I should be retired ...BUT. .....granted the post is a little confused ,I'm normally doing turbo with exotic fuels but this year ordered parts will be late so on the spur of the moment I decided to go back to an old record of mine that was taken by others ( a nitrous record) , due to time and money restraints I'm throwing together existing old parts and my road bike ( hayabusa) which is stock, you could say making a purse out of a sows ear.

Condensed version limited to 2x 5 lb NX ( nitrous express) bottles total 10 lb of nitrous, need to spray for minimum of 60 seconds ( do not have a nitrogen pressurizing system) spraying a total of 140 HP using 4x 0.031 thou jets nitrous side again NX jets...... asking the question when is the best time to spray A. early say 5/6 K rpm to benefit from the extra torque and acceleration but use the nitrous early in the run and risk running out before the timed mile or 2. spraying late say near max RPM and reaching the timed mile but not knowing if the benefits are there spraying at near max revs or will it want to over rev and trip the rev limiter? nitrous will be brought in over time.

2. At what point does the contents and pressure in the bottles begin to drop off substantially as a percentage of the total contents causing a corresponding drop in power?
That depends on a number of factors;
1) The amount of nitrous you are flowing (jet size), 2) The position of the bottles, 3) The spec of the bottles, 4) The type and colour of coating or lack of one (which I'm sure will surprise you), 5) the ambient temperature
There are a number of ways you can get better results, than using a 'basic' system, even a WON 'basic' system.

Jet size is 0.031 X 4 nitrous ....bottle position low at rear of swing arm both sides ( only possible place to locate them ), bottles angled at aprox 30 deg from the horizontal , valves at high point.... bottle type NX brand standard motorcycle valve....colour of bottles is white ( no I did not know colour counted) ambient temp ( hot ) averages around 100 deg F some times up to 120 deg F

my calculations for usage are 100 hp = 1.2 lbs every 10 seconds is this correct?
That sounds rather high to me but as I haven't had to provide the correct figure for many years, it's slipped my mind for now, so I'll have to check my records to give you the correct figure but again whatever the figure is, you can't change it so it's of no real consequence to what you are trying to achieve.
The key things to aim for are; Consistent pressure and Maximum efficiency.
If you can either send me pictures of all parts of your system fitted to the bike, to enquiries@noswizard.com or better still, post them here and I'd be happy to assess them and give you as much advice, on how to achieve your goals as possible.

these calulatios for usage are from my old notes back in the day thats why I was asking if they are a valid calculation......no pics yet as I'm still building

Thanks for the reply:) If I ever find the time I would love to do a full blown revo set up with 20 lbs of n2o and a nitrogen pressure set up and shoot for the moon :)

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 Post subject: Re: when to spray
PostPosted: Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:27 pm 
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hawkwind racing wrote:
Hi Trev yes a long time lol I should be retired ...BUT. .....granted the post is a little confused ,I'm normally doing turbo with exotic fuels but this year ordered parts will be late so on the spur of the moment I decided to go back to an old record of mine that was taken by others ( a nitrous record) , due to time and money restraints I'm throwing together existing old parts and my road bike ( hayabusa) which is stock, you could say making a purse out of a sows ear.
I hate to tell you this but I doubt you'll achieve a great deal using that method, because as I stated previously, you need to maximise EFFICIENCY to have any hope of getting a decent result. Unfortunately, the US supplied components you're intending to use, are so INefficient, that I would estimate you'd be wasting at least 25% of the bottle contents as a result.

Condensed version limited to 2x 5 lb NX ( nitrous express) bottles total 10 lb of nitrous, need to spray for minimum of 60 seconds ( do not have a nitrogen pressurizing system) spraying a total of 140 HP using 4x 0.031 thou jets nitrous side again NX jets...... asking the question when is the best time to spray A. early say 5/6 K rpm to benefit from the extra torque and acceleration but use the nitrous early in the run and risk running out before the timed mile or 2. spraying late say near max RPM and reaching the timed mile but not knowing if the benefits are there spraying at near max revs or will it want to over rev and trip the rev limiter? nitrous will be brought in over time.
The only real way to determine how much TIME you'll get out of such a hybrid and inefficient system, si by running it on the track. You'd have to start by using it from say 7,000 rpm and seeing how far down the track you get that way and if you feel it losing power before the finish line, you'll be able to determine where in the run you'd need to activate it, to ensure you cross the finish line under full power.

Jet size is 0.031 X 4 nitrous ....bottle position low at rear of swing arm both sides ( only possible place to locate them ), bottles angled at aprox 30 deg from the horizontal , valves at high point.... bottle type NX brand standard motorcycle valve....colour of bottles is white ( no I did not know colour counted) ambient temp ( hot ) averages around 100 deg F some times up to 120 deg F
There are a number of very inefficient aspects to that arrangement, for example the most efficient way of getting the maximum liquid from the bottle, is to remove the syphon (dip) tubes and invert the bottles but that's only one of the numerous INefficient aspects of the combination of parts, that you are intending to use. BTW the white NYLON coating that NX use is the WORST possible finish you could use, as the contents of the bottle NEED HEAT INPUT to maintain the pressure at the highest possible level and white REFLECTS heat and nylon is an INSULATOR!!!!! All of which shows how LITTLE the likes of NX, understand about the physics of nitrous oxide use.

these calulatios for usage are from my old notes back in the day thats why I was asking if they are a valid calculation......no pics yet as I'm still building
Unless you've ever used a FULL WON system before, your nitrous consumption for a given power increase will be at least 30% higher (or 30% LESS efficient), than they would otherwise be, so that would explain why my figures would be lower and unfortunately, your much higher figure may well be correct, for the parts you are intending to use.

Thanks for the reply:) If I ever find the time I would love to do a full blown revo set up with 20 lbs of n2o and a nitrogen pressure set up and shoot for the moon :)
Glad to hear you say that but you could be leaving it too late. Have you heard of the AMAZING world record speeds, that Ransom Holbrook has set over the mile and mile and half distances, using JUST a FULL WON REVO system? Also although it was prevented by extremely poor track conditions, one of your fellow country WOMEN (I believe), posted the fastest time on 2 wheels (on a BMW 1000), at Bonneville in 2016 (I believe), also using a FULL WON REVO system. The guy behind the Australian team is now building another LSR bike and has ordered another replica system for that, as he was so happy with the results.

If I were you, either I wouldn't waste my time using such inefficient parts and wait until your turbo bike is done or I'd sell off those parts (and anything else you can sell to raise the money) and purchase the most efficient parts from us. Not only would you then have a MUCH better chance of achieving your goal on the basis of much improved efficiency but also, because you wouldn't be at the much higher risk of engine failure, causing a premature end to your attempts.
:idea:

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 Post subject: Re: when to spray
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:38 am 
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Thanks Trev for the honest answers:) .... I'm well aware of the shortfalls and if time and finances permit I would like to do a proper revo system one day.
cheers
Gary.

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 Post subject: Re: when to spray
PostPosted: Mon Feb 05, 2018 9:30 pm 
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If you decide to continue with what you have, I'd remove the valves and remove the dip tubes.
I'd then reverse the mounting of the bottles, so the valves are at the lowest point. As the angle is quite shallow, you'll probably need to fit very short dip tubes, that are bent in such a way as to have the open end as close to the lowest point of the bottle as possible. Alternatively I'd mount the bottles vertically (or as near to vertical as possible) and not bother with fitting any dip tubes.
Next thing to do is remove the white nylon coatings and either leave them bare metal or PAINT them with a thin coat of BLACK PAINT.
If you can't reposition the bottles, try to locate some nylon tube (the type used in pneumatics), that will side inside the braided hose, to reduce the volume. If you can reposition the bottles, you won't need the pipe mod.
Finally, I suggest you do whatever mods you can, to use nylon pipe instead of braided hose from the solenoids forward.
These mods will ensure you get the best results from what you have.

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 Post subject: Re: when to spray
PostPosted: Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:05 pm 
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Hawkwind - good to see you getting active again! I’ve like the original thought I’ve seen on another site I think - can’t remember where at this time.

I too wish I could go to a revo setup. Ransom Holbrook has been very helpful with sharing information - I have benefitted a lot from his suggestions and what I have learned here too.

Since you are already running two separate 5 pound bottles — maybe consider running them as two separate systems? Use one bottle to get up to speed, and then as pressure starts to drop, switch to the second system to sustain the speed?



Last year I swapped from a cobbled up system that included a WON pulsoid to a full WON system from bottle valve to discharge tubes. I say a definite increase in speeds for a given level of nitrous. A 25 shot this past year put us faster than a 50 shot had been the year prior with no other changes to the aero of the bike (and a slightly smaller engine!).

A lot of people that use nitrous in drag racing don’t care about efficiency - just throw in bigger jets. But landspeed racing on a motorcycle, efficiency becomes much more important! I was impressed with the improvement of the full WON setup.

Good luck! Let us know how you get on!


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