NITROUS OXIDE ( nos / n2o ) advice forum

I have read through the Max Extreme manual top to bottom a dozen times trying to configure this with my AEM Infinity ECU. I am going to use a two step controller through the AEM ECU to launch the car.
I'm not a big fan of the 2 step idea and believe you would get better results from just holding the rpm at a LOW level, then launching with the nitrous system activated BEFORE releasing the clutch, as this will deliver maximum torque. 2 step limiters can cause plugs to foul momentarily plus you lose the benefit of the low rpm torque.

The two step function works like this:
If the car is not moving, as it is staged on the line; one is able to fully depress the throttle and the ECU will hold the launch RPM at a predetermined point. I also have an adjustable clutch control for the launch in first gear. When the car is line locked on the starting line I depress the clutch and enable the adjustable release which will hold the clutch depressed and ready for the release button to engage the clutch.
The clutch release is fine and I created the same type of arrangement (with some additions) on one of my first Drag bikes. My clutch pedal was pneumatically activated and I added a release rate regulator, so I could have the clutch engage at whatever rate was best and all I had to do was pin the throttle to the stop and let the presets do the rest.
When I switched to racing cars I also added pneumatic activation of the throttle pedal, so that all I had to do was press a button on the steering wheel to launch the car. I had an adjustable regulator feed the throttle ram, so I could adjust the rate at which the pedal was activated, as this prevented me from getting over eager when I was using street tires on poor tracks and enabled me to avoid blowing the tires away, as would otherwise have been the case.

This is my dilemma, and I can not figure it out. The clutch is equipped with a switch when depressed to recognize gear shifts (12v for the Max), and the throttle is able to be fully depressed for the entire run (full throttle shifting through the AEM ECU) as stated so I can not control the max by TPS or RPM drop which leaves the 12v switched gear input.
It is not installed yet but is currently being configured for the above criteria.
My questions are this:

How will the Max behave on the starting line with the throttle fully depressed?
How can the MAX be made to begin the first gear ramp with the release button for the clutch?
If you continue with this option (which I wouldn't for the reasons given above), all you need to do is have the clutch switch activate a relay (which can be arranged whether the clutch switch is open or closed prior to launch), that has the contacts wired in to the TPS circuit, in such a way that they close on the release of the clutch.

The clutch switch is functional when fully depress for the Max and able to step through the gears with the 12v gear input function. When on the line and the clutch is held electronically, the pedal will return to it's normal position (non 12v) but resting. I have wrestled with this and can not grasp it yet as it is not installed completely yet. A very long and well explained answer is MUCH desired. If I have to return my MAX for reprogramming to preform as above with a specially configured input, that's fine also. I have a few more pieces to order from you very soon and can send it along for any more current features. It's still in the box Trever, but it's getting closer to the car as I begin wiring the vehicle for these ECU and Max controllers.
You shouldn't need to return it for any special mods but it would be worth buying our latest software, as we've added some very useful new features that you should benefit from. This can be done by also buying our reprogramming kit without the need to return the Max to us or you can return it and we'll do it for you here.

Maybe it would be possible to withhold the RPM signal from the Max Extreme prior to the launch and enable it exactly when the clutch controller is released. This might allow the 1st gear step to proceed and await the gear select inputs to control the progression. If the RPM signal was removed (sensing nothing), then was connected; when the RPM window criteria is met the Max should begin to operate......correct?
If you set the RPM window above the launch rpm the Max will not activate until the engine reaches the selected setting. Example; Set 2 step at say 3,000 rpm and the Max at say 3,200 rpm

BTW the RPM drop feature WILL enable the Max to select the next gear program, even though you will be shifting at full throttle, as the RPM WILL drop as the shift occurs.

OK, so if I understand you correctly I would be better off by withholding the TPS signal from the Max just prior to launch.
Correct.

This is easily arranged as you suggested through relay structuring and controls.
Exactly I always try to keep things simple as that is always the best solution.

Consistency is the reason for the two step. The AEM Infinity allows me to have a dash mounted RPM selection of my own setting values to get the car into a consistent launch under different track conditions. This is a valuable feature that I plan on exploring. It also affords me a traction control dash knob similarly programmed to my criteria for slip RPM interruption between the front tires and the rear tire RPM sensors. These are powerful tools that have been implemented in auto cross and drag racing very successfully.
It's not a good idea to use nitrous with traction control and for the reasons provided in my last post I wouldn't recommend using a 2 step. I have many bike customers who use 2 steps and they work fine but there are much better options.
You can still get 100% consistency as you are wanting by;
1) Launching from the same rpm on each run
2) Using the adjustability of the Max features to achieve an optimum launch under different conditions
You can even log which settings work best on different tracks/conditions and simply switch between them.
Other than REAL TIME traction control (which unless it allows for some spin would be detrimental to ET's anyway), the Max should be able to deliver near perfect power delivery, without the issues I mentioned relating to 2 steps, etc.

Maximum torque off the line is not what I am going for at this performance stage. I want a soft hit on the drive line and safe consistent 60' times for some time before I try shaving a tenth or two here and there. As you know, all of this can be controlled in the per gear programming with the Max through delay nitrous/fuel options and stepped increments.
Wise move and exactly what my top Pro Mod customer is doing with his REVO system, which has already resulted in a 4.12 1/8 mile time and he's MILES AWAY from optimum;
1) Launch parameters - he should be able to improve his 60ft times by at least a tenth of a second
2) Chassis set up - he hasn't even touched his new shocks
3) Shift points - he's shifting very early which is currently causing high initial torque after the shift, which is breaking traction
4) Mixture - he's playing it VERY SAFE and is running EXTREMELY RICH at present, so I estimate that he's losing at least 30% of the power it should be making
5) Timing - again he's playing it VERY SAFE and is running EXCESSIVELY RETARDED at present, so I estimate that he's losing at least ANOTHER 30% of the power it should be making
6) Max settings - he's only made 6 passes so far, so he has still to find the best power settings for all 100 points of the run
Plus he's not even half way to the maximum power the system is capable of delivering (which is 2,500 hp), as he's only FLOWING approx. 800 at present, of which I estimate he's down by close to 50% due to the VERY SAFE mixture and timing settings.
So as you can imagine, he's EXTREMELY HAPPY with the results so far.

Your pneumatically activated rate release system sounds great and if I remember correctly; I first saw these being used in the 80s on top fuel and funny car clutch systems. It was real voo doo back then and extreme secrecy was employed.
I wasn't aware that anyone else had used the idea but I first came up with and used the idea in the mid 70s and it was certainly original then. It came about because I had a motorcycle business and I was selling pneumatic gear shifters at the time. I'd just lost my right leg in a road accident and I'd just bought a unique 3 wheel Drag bike, which had an extremely heavy clutch so I just adapted a shifter ram to do that job as well.

The RPM drop feature was (assumed by me) to be a little crude and possibly inaccurate with full throttle shifting. I didn't think that it would be sensitive enough to detect a small drop. Perhaps I should configure it with the RPM drop gear change function since you are confident in it.
I had a moment to think about the RPM drop feature and think it is a better choice for a subtle reason. The motors RPM does not actually drop until the clutch is in or mostly engaged with the drive train loaded. IMO, that is a good place to activate the next stage as opposed to a clutch switch that activates the next stage when the clutch is fully depressed and unengaged. Even though a proper delay setting can be achieved with the Max. The RPM drop function seems simpler and consistent with the motors ACTUAL needs.
The rpm drop feature has worked well for many bike customers who all flat shift (some of which only drop 500 rpm), so I've no doubt it will work fine for you and yes the activation point should be ideal.

Added Max features?!?!?!

What can this be? Tell me more please. What wild new variants have you and your scientists come up with?
Can't remember all of them but the most important new feature is a 100 point Mixture map, which enables you to change the REVO positions relative to each other, at 100 independent percentage points, much like a map in an ECU.

As much as I'd be happy to share the credit for any new ideas, 99% of all the new/unique ideas my products consist of are mine and my team only help to convert those ideas into working products, which they obviously do a good job of.

Thank you for your very good response to my thoughts.

I am not sure that I understand the 100 point settings advance.
Let me guess:

The older version of the Max was capable of 6 settings per gear X 5 gears = 30 total adjustable points.
The newer version can actually have 100 points per gear adjustability?

I don't think I have it.
Correct you don't have it.
It is not about the power at the power adjustment points.
Until we added the Mixture map feature, we had just 2 very basic ways to alter the mixture to try and match them up over the entire run and although this was adequate for most applications it was less than I was happy with, so I asked my electronics tech to add the Mixture map feature, as that enables the user to adjust the mixture AT EACH of the 100 percentage points INDEPENDENTLY of the rest (to an adequate degree), to achieve optimum mixture over the entire range of operation.

I am very glad to hear the RPM sense is going to work.

The two step controller built into the Infinity ECU has a very broad user defined architecture.
I realize that you are warning me about possible misfires causing loaded cylinders or worse, setting off pre ignition. The 2 step has the ability to 1. just cut spark at a certain point. 2. just cut fuel at a certain point. 3. just pull timing at a certain point 4. a little of all of the above.

So with all this adjustability a great compromise can be reached that never puts a cylinder in duress. Obviously it takes some time to find those setting which can all be set in N/A alone.
Can you remind me if the system is dry or wet please.

The traction control has all of the above variable to play with and the slip differential between drive and driven wheels has a driver adjustable knob that defines the minimum point of interrupt to facilitate traction control.

I am listening very closely to what you are saying. I have only more fully informed you about the system parameters so that you may consider them as they are not the old stutter box type launch controllers that you are warning me about. It is actually a little weird to see how smooth the RPM is when being controlled this way.
It doesn't matter about the design/brand, it is the core principle of cutting fuel delivery and/or ignition that I'm referring to.

Thank you again Trever.
My pleasure.

The system is a wet type as I have a fuel and nitrous REVO.
Very good and just how it should be and in that case my advice about the 2 step is all the more appropriate and important.

I don"t suppose that you could just allow me the upgraded software for free? I have purchased every single item that you have available, including the REVO position sensors and the dual high pressure safety valve assembly you recommended.

I am going to shake things up hard over here with this system Trever and be an able representative of WON.
I am going to be purchasing a pro bottle valve assembly VERY soon and there was something else too, I just can't remember right now.
I'll consider giving you a discount on the software when you place that order.

If the traction control has got some personality quirks that will not play well with the Max, I won't use it.
I get it I think. If the ECU is going to be altering the tune with the TC system and the Max has no way to properly sense these changes instantly, it could/would throw the Max into a surge or stumble. I don't want that either.
It's not that it will mess with the Max/REVO, what it will do is cause the mixture to run very lean while on the limiter (if it cuts the fuel), which causes backfires in to the induction system, that can obviously cause substantial damage and at worst cause the car to catch fire. It can also cause engine damage and at very least have a detrimental effect on the ET's.

I really like talking with you again Trever. Thank you for the pointers.
My pleasure and likewise.