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 Post subject: Re: Mustang GT 2004
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 8:55 pm 
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Those big V8's are thirsty, mind you you only pay about a quarter of what we do!


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 Post subject: Re: Mustang GT 2004
PostPosted: Wed Apr 12, 2017 9:44 pm 
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The demand of the nitrous is beyond the included ECU tables, so I don't get the fuel pressure bump that I should. The pump should easily deliver 500+ bhp, except it doesn't receive the instruction to do so. It's just down to the programming beyond 100 bhp.

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 Post subject: Re: Mustang GT 2004
PostPosted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 6:42 pm 
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Cookin' with GAAAAS!

Went to test out the Musty with the standard 50 jets to work out any bugs, then I hopped up to the 70 jets: big difference in torque (150 ft lbs @ 2500). After hitting the gas, I cut the engine and found all spark plugs looking quite healthy (I'd say a good safe A/F). I erred more on the richer side with a slightly smaller nitrous jet to account for the high climate temps so realistically, it is about 70-75 hp. Of course I go to crank it up to go home and... 1 cyl dead. I thought, "WTF? That's impossible, everything was OK. These things love the gas and this was nothing." I limped home only to find that someone had a JACKED UP wiring repair on a FUEL INJECTOR! I was SUPER LUCKY to find that it didn't give out during the tests or else I could have eaten a cyl up. It's all good now, but that was a close call.


I'm also unsure if I'm spinning tire hard or if the clutch is slipping on the gas now. It feels like a good clutch but I did notice that the revs jumped a bit (by sound) as the car accelerated. I didn't look at the speedo to see if it matched, so hopefully I can manage with the stock clutch for now. If anything, I can ease the ramp up on the Maxy: right now it's basically a fixed hit.

The Musty is really liking the lovely nectar! :D

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 Post subject: Re: Mustang GT 2004
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:12 pm 
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Work in progress:

Fitting a 20 lb (about 4 gallons) LPG tank for nitrous fuel supply. I'm not finished with it yet, but this is what it will look like. It still needs the top strap to be made and it's going to be a slightly different design so that it's easier to remove/reinstall the tank and be more secure.

Instead of mounting a separate fuel cell to fill up with expensive, super corrosive, or perishable fuels and then having to find a fuel pump & regulator for all of that, it's just cheaper and simpler to use LPG. LPG is high octane, needs no pump, doesn't spoil, and... IT'S CHEAP!

At last, I won't have to dick around with buying tuners to mess with the ECU to get the fuel pump to work correctly nor need to retard timing beyond the stock tables.

Plus, I won't need to refill the tank that often because it takes a lot less fuel than nitrous to produce power. It's about a 1:5~6 usage ratio so I'll have fuel for a LOOOONG time before a refill is needed.

Lastly, with LPG, there is no worry about fuel drop out because the liquid propane boils into a gas like nitrous so it won't puddle, which is a concern on this intake manifold.

The Musty may have a 125 progressive hit soon!


Basically, this is the same route that I use on my mini go-kart that I sprayed some big hits on for a little 46cc with no damage of any kind: gains of over 200% on that little thing.


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 Post subject: Re: Mustang GT 2004
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:18 pm 
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Thats quick work, better than paying someone to do the ecu work too, enjoying the story so far


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 Post subject: Re: Mustang GT 2004
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:23 pm 
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bmwz4 wrote:
Thats quick work, better than paying someone to do the ecu work too, enjoying the story so far

It's not that I couldn't do it myself, but I'd have to REMAP every single vehicle and they typically are NOT the same brand LOL.. I'll change to GM, Toyota, Nissan, Ford, etc.
etc and remapping each one of those is just too much cost for each individual tuner tool. I could use a standalone ECU, but that takes many hours to wire up and then set it all up. This route will go around pretty much all of that nonsense, at least up to a reasonable point.

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 Post subject: Re: Mustang GT 2004
PostPosted: Sun Apr 16, 2017 10:24 pm 
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BTW, I finished up the bracket and now I'm definitely confident in its safety level. Next step is testing out the jetting ratios and going for some tests.

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 Post subject: Re: Mustang GT 2004
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:13 am 
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Lets hope you dont get a pucture when spinning up those rear tires, cos youve got no where for the spare now!


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 Post subject: Re: Mustang GT 2004
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:40 am 
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Yes, I'm going to sort that out. In the meantime, it's sitting in the back seat.

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 Post subject: Re: Mustang GT 2004
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 11:58 am 
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With the LPG do you just use the bottle pressure or use a regulator to adjust the output, or is it just a case of jet size ratio?


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 Post subject: Re: Mustang GT 2004
PostPosted: Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:25 pm 
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bmwz4 wrote:
With the LPG do you just use the bottle pressure or use a regulator to adjust the output, or is it just a case of jet size ratio?

I'm using the liquid form of the fuel, not the gas so I cannot use a regulator. Like any other medium, the flow is based on pressure through restriction, therefore the jet is controlling the amount of fuel from the tank that is pressurized at a fairly consistent 140-160 psi in my climate. Really hot days can bring it up to 200, but also consider that the nitrous cylinder will also be heated to provide more power to match. Even in that scenario, the mix should be even richer helping cap the amount of power being made so that I don't exceed the engine's strength. LPG has a funny pressure curve that becomes increases the warmer it becomes, it is not linear by any means.

I could use the propane in gaseous form, but that greatly limits the power production since it's far less dense than the liquid. I also lose the cooling ability from the expansion process at the injection point.

I really like the idea of not having to switch to smaller nitrous jets when the temps rise too high. I normally jet to such conditions, but it leaves me with a richer mix than I'd like in cooler temps that would otherwise be normal (30*C 85*F). I could adjust the mix with the max extreme, but I wouldn't want to forget to turn it back and have a mishap. I need to install an AFR meter for the Maxy to read, which would take care of that problem.

This method just spells convenience. Probably the only real downside is having to periodically weight it and also having to remove the tank when not in use.
At least for me because it can get hot enough inside the car to cause the relief valve to spew flammable gas. In cooler weather, I can leave it installed.

Right now, the bracket system makes it pretty easy to install and remove the tank, but I'd like to improve it to make it even easier.

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 Post subject: Re: Mustang GT 2004
PostPosted: Tue May 02, 2017 11:11 pm 
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Propane injection is a GO!!!

I was unhappy with the braided pipe, so I fitted nylon pipe to feed the LPG. I can switch back to braided, once the fuel requirements go up but that's A LOT of fuel!

It was MUCH more critical that the fuel side piping be proper because any inconsistency in fuel delivery (even for a moment) could blow the engine from a lean AF. If this was the nitrous side, the only effect would be a loss of power due to over-fuelling.

Check out this video of why I chose the nylon (note: I knew this would be the result): Braided v Nylon

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 Post subject: Re: Mustang GT 2004
PostPosted: Wed Jun 14, 2017 9:42 pm 
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Excellent 8)

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 Post subject: Re: Mustang GT 2004
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:35 pm 
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I haven't posted in a while (nitrous shortage), so here is the "Musty Plan" for a stock engine street beast:

Attachment:
mustyplan.jpg
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Obviously, this is just a predictive model and in no way reflects real world results but it should be close. The key is using the progressive power application where the engine speed rises and torque falls. Most supercharger systems reflect similar results in power and peak torque, but not the broad torque curve possible with WoN nitrous systems.

Moreover, it shows how it's possible to run such a large amount of nitrous on a generally weak engine (internally) where most nitrous users have failed, thus praising superchargers as "safe". Unknowingly, they don't realize the huge amounts of sudden torque even on a much smaller shot can blast pistons and conrods to powdered bits. Like in this example:

Attachment:
BlowUpRecipe.jpg
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This example uses a competitor's "Wheel Horsepower Rating" (more like horseSHIT), where the typical user blasts a "150 whp" shot of nitrous. This engine won't survive very long and I have yet to see one still running around. And even if it did blow, the owner probably wouldn't fess up to it.

More on the WHP rating: there is no magic behind claiming that a shot is measured at the wheels or at the crank. The only difference is taking out the friction loss variable of the drivetrain. In order to produce the WHP of 150 through a manual, you must flow enough nitrous to produce approximately 175 bhp worth of it. Simply put, our 'X' competitor just flows more nitrous initially fooling the average person into thinking that their systems are more efficient when they are not. I could easily claim that WoN can produce a 150 whp shot, when the theoretical value is 175 bhp. It's all psychological nonsense!


So yea, I'm hoping for a adding 170 WHP to my stock engined Musty. The power levels pretty much put it close but not dangerously close to the power limit. However, my engine is pretty seasoned and it is possible that it's age could promote conrod twist and aggravate any micro cracks if used too often. A lower torque level around 380 wheel torque would be a better choice for performance over a long life. Just something to think about when trying to push the limits of an aged engine that normally would hold a 450-500 wheel torque limit before failure when new.

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 Post subject: Re: Mustang GT 2004
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 2:34 pm 
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very interesting read :yes:

I had heard some talk of the nitrous shortage on an American nitrous page im a member of on face book, if i remember correctly a large plant went up in flames.

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 Post subject: Re: Mustang GT 2004
PostPosted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:10 pm 
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Yes, it did. I've never heard of such a thing before and it just HAD to happen in my neck of the woods! ARGH!!! :evil: :evil: :evil:

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 Post subject: Re: Mustang GT 2004
PostPosted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 11:26 pm 
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After much consideration, I've decided to go in a different direction with the Musty. For the time being, it will remain as is with a single point injector setup. More information to come about this. Currently, I am awaiting the arrival of hurricane Irma, which left me a lot of time to shop. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Mustang GT 2004
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:18 am 
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Good Luck hope youre not to badly affected


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 Post subject: Re: Mustang GT 2004
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:50 pm 
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good luck with Hurricane Irma, been a lot of coverage about it on the news over here...

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 Post subject: Re: Mustang GT 2004
PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:32 pm 
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All is well on my end: it's as if it never happened :D

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 Post subject: Re: Mustang GT 2004
PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:58 pm 
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phew thats good news

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 Post subject: Re: Mustang GT 2004
PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:00 am 
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Well, I did gather some goodies for the Musty. The problem now is that the time and cost to complete "the swap" is going to be very high and that makes things difficult. So I will stick to a good old 12 second recipe that only requires tires, some suspension, and 100-125 jetting on the WoN system. I sorted out my Maxy issues that prevented me from using the window function (both my fault and vital info left out from the instructions).

So now that it works, I can go more "balls to the wall" without worrying about missing a gear and hitting the fuel cut on the gas.

I still haven't sourced any gas yet, but I am going to start hunting some down quite soon.

If I can get the car in decent shape, I will start going to the strip to practice and get used to the car as-is. It has some rotten suspension that will no doubt be a problem so that needs attention as well. The back end feels like it wants to go anything but straight and the front steering is sloppy: it makes for a tough car to keep in a straight line! :beatstick:

The recipe should work out to 12.7-12.4 @ 104-107 mph with good driving (none of which I have BTW) and 370 bhp and 440 lbft trq estimated. For any US guys and gals that's CRANK power.

I find it amusing when I see ridiculous debates about wheel power vs crank power.

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