NITROUS OXIDE ( nos / n2o ) advice forum

Nitrous Oxide ( NOS / N20 ) Forum
 
It is currently Sun Sep 22, 2019 2:11 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Great advert for WON engine building services
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 7:44 pm 
Offline
Wizard

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 6:43 am
Posts: 886
Location: UK
This may be a little premature, but I'm confident, so I'll oust myself now.

My Celica went to the dyno today, in search of a world record 205+whp from the N/A 1.8 lump. Damnit, my £600 standalone ecu decided to spoil the show and died, so the world record had to be put on hold, but what I thought I'd bring to your attention in this thread is the potential of the engine.

When reading this thread, keep in mind, that I'm talking about power to the wheels, not a derived (ie, guessed!) 'bhp' figure. Also keep in mind that this is a high revving 1.8 litre 4 banger engine. The only competition are those damned Honda boys who go on forever ana day about how legendary the B18C5 engine is (mind you, it IS a terrific N/A motor :yes: ). For many years 200whp N/A on a 2ZZ-GE engine has been the unicorn of the celica community, but this year a couple of guys in the United States have managed to break that figure.

The precision by which your engine is assembled should not be overlooked for any of your thinking to get an engine build done!! So much power can be lost forever, if the right steps aren't taken in assembling the entire engine from tip to toe. Thankfully, mine seems to be a right hard-arse. My engine was built by sir Trev Langfield himself and it's no surprise that it's held together so strong thus far (so many 2zz engines mysteriously die after a rebuild :evil: ) and this baseline dyno below show how well it was put together.

Image

1hp short of 180 at the front wheels :twisted:

This was on the stock ecu running uber rich (like, 10's at WOT :shock: ) and with none of the vvt or ignition timing optimised. I have no doubt that I'll (fingers crossed :redface: ) hit my target of at least 200whp N/A when I get my ecu fixed and the car mapped. For a general comparison, standard celica's in this country have seen ~145-150whp on the same dyno and a friends car that recently got mapped there, managed to gain little over 30whp from full tuning of the entire engine, resulting in a 176whp power figure. Yes, that's right - my engine on the standard ecu running crap, has outperformed another engine that's been fully tuned and with similar mods :bow: Heck, I know somebody from the 'States who has an amazing intake manifold (the one thing my set up is missing) and even when fully tuned, he's only made 191whp...engine building precision is key.

Granted, I have the very best parts inside my engine, but I think that large credit should go to the guys that used their experience and expertise in putting it all together (ie, cutting new valve seats for me, porting the head, making sure the ring-bore clearance was 110% etc etc), so thankyou Trev and Steve and well done!!! :yes:

I'll keep you guys updated when I get it fully dyno tuned and if I manage to claim the world record. The goal for this car is to run low 13's N/A and low 12's with nitrous. Next month I 'hope' to have my nitrous system armed and ready to go in my car. Still lots to do, but I'm in no hurry and I've got the best in the business, right behind me :cheers:

Here's a pointless vid of a dyno pull:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Vf4wLxtGRk


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  

Advertisement

Wizards of NOS Sparkplugs
 Post subject: Re: Great advert for WON engine building services
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 9:39 pm 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:07 pm
Posts: 18701
Location: Doncaster
That's a GREAT RESULT so far Ron and you are SO CORRECT about THE BUILD BEING ALL IMPORTANT and that's not because we built yours (because we're no longer in a position to build anymore, due to the REVO production taking priority), it's because it's FACT!!

Here's an experience I had some years ago;

2 young guys came to me wanting to know what I could do for them to get more power from their Rover V8s.

I told them NOT to waste their money on NEW TUNING parts and told them that 'I' could make MORE POWER from re-building a USED engine with just a few NEW STOCK parts than ANYONE else could make from spending DOUBLE the amount of money on tuned parts.

One of the guys thought I was talking out of my arse (as so many 'smart' guys do), while the other took me at my word and had me supply him with a USED engine that I re-built for him with just the following new parts and NO major reconditioning work (like a crank grind or re-bore), so the NEW STOCK parts were;
Camshaft, followers, timing gear set, big end & main shells and the ONLY 'machine' work was a bore hone.

The 2nd of the 2 guys went to some other tuning shop which persuaded him I was a fool and sold him a boat load of new 'performance' parts, which included ported heads and a big cam, etc.

Once both guys got their engines back in their cars, they went to the same dyno shop to see who had the most power.

Now I'm sure you know what is coming next and although I can't remember the exact details the story went something like this;
The guy with the 'TUNED' engine produced something like 170 hp at peak rpm of about 7,000.
My customer (with an otherwise IDENTICAL vehicle), made something like 10 hp more at just over 4,000 rpm before the traction between the tires and the rollers became none existent, due to the much greater torque my engine was producing.

NOT ONLY THAT but a few months later the 'TUNED' motor needed rebuilding, because the cam had been wiped out as it hadn't been fitted and set up correctly, yet my customers engine was still running perfectly many years later.

Just to prove conclusively it's what you know NOT what parts you use that matters, PRIOR to learning how to build Rover V8's (specifically), I built one using THE BEST PARTS AVAILABLE all brand new and fitted to a fully reconditioned short motor, that lasted approx TWENTY 1/4 mile passes, before it ended as A TOTAL WRECKAGE. :redface: :evil:

_________________
Regards

Trev (The WIZARD of NOS)

30 years of nitrous experience and counting!!!!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Great advert for WON engine building services
PostPosted: Mon Sep 28, 2009 11:46 pm 
Offline
Wizard

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 6:43 am
Posts: 886
Location: UK
Yeah, absolutely Trev, I agree with you totally. I'm so glad that we had that phonecall a couple years back and I decided to go with you for the build. I really don't trust anyone else to work on my engine to be honest. What really impressed me was that you used your vast experience to build an engine which you had no experience of prior and you've gone and made it the most powerful N/A 2zz in the UK without even trying :rofl:

One thing that does scare me though...I distinctly remember you telling me that eventually the valves or the rockers will fail due to the big cam...going on the theory that you tend to be right about engines without evening looking at them, that kinda worries me :( so um...if anything does break, you'll have to make an exception for me and mend it again :mrgreen:

Right, looks like I better get back on shedule with my nitrous install. I'd like 'some' nitrous when I come up next month :twisted:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Great advert for WON engine building services
PostPosted: Tue Sep 29, 2009 12:49 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:07 pm
Posts: 18701
Location: Doncaster
Ron wrote:
Yeah, absolutely Trev, I agree with you totally. I'm so glad that we had that phonecall a couple years back and I decided to go with you for the build. I really don't trust anyone else to work on my engine to be honest.
Very kind of you to say so Ron, shame I don't have the time to offer the engine building service to many more people, as it would save them a great deal of pain and expense in the long run.

What really impressed me was that you used your vast experience to build an engine which you had no experience of prior and you've gone and made it the most powerful N/A 2zz in the UK without even trying :rofl:
Actually that is VERY TRUE, because I wasn't 'trying' to build you the most powerful engine, as you gave the spec of most of the tuning parts, I was just MAKING SURE it was built to be as reliable as possible and had I also wanted to make it more powerful (and had we the time to have done it), I'm CERTAIN i could have managed another 10 to 20 hp from it. MOST of the people in the engine building trade, don't know their arse from their elbow, so it's little wonder that I was able to achieve so much (in comparison) with so little effort.
Proof of that is all the BULLSHIT you were told by virtually every company involved in and experienced with your engine, about virtually every aspect of the spec./build, which I repeatedly informed you was UTTER RUBBISH!!!


One thing that does scare me though...I distinctly remember you telling me that eventually the valves or the rockers will fail due to the big cam...going on the theory that you tend to be right about engines without evening looking at them, that kinda worries me :( so um...if anything does break, you'll have to make an exception for me and mend it again :mrgreen:
I think you've mixed up a couple of my statements their Ron, yes the bigger cam will put all the drive train components under much more stress and they will wear quicker than stock parts BUT my main concern in this regard was IF you'd ignored my advice to use NEW followers and used the worn originals as EVERYONE ELSE WRONGLY ADVISED YOU TO DO, just because it was more convenient for them to do that.
I can't predict how long your valve components will last but despite a couple of QUITE MAJOR ADVERSE ISSUES that the engine has had to experience (unwillingness to start when first built and your little escapade with the cam timing), I think our EXTREME PRECAUTIONS to ensure long valve train life, have held you in good stead and therefore you should get a decent life from them. ;)


Right, looks like I better get back on shedule with my nitrous install. I'd like 'some' nitrous when I come up next month :twisted:
That's the easy bit. :yes:

_________________
Regards

Trev (The WIZARD of NOS)

30 years of nitrous experience and counting!!!!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Great advert for WON engine building services
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:13 am 
Offline
Wizard

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 6:43 am
Posts: 886
Location: UK
Just an update to this.

I changed my extremely restrictive intake that I dyno'd on, for a proper cold air intake with the filter located outside the engine bay...the car instantly picked up over 10hp!! I borrowed my friends g-tech meter and did a before/after comparison. Basically it was giving me a figure of 175 at the wheels (on a weight of 1100kg but my car weighs less than this, I'm sure of it) with the short intake and with the new one it was 186/187...

Not entirely scientific, but if I was to go back to the dyno I'm sure it would read extremely close to the 190whp mark...which is absolutely superb, given that the ecu has not been mapped yet!

So Sir Trev, thank you once again...seems like whatever you did (particularly on porting the head inlet ports - and i'm very interested to know how much was taken off and in what areas?) has made everything respond so well. The car pulls very nicely now. 60mph is dealt with bang on 6 secs now :)

For all those reading this - HOW your engine is built, is more important than the parts that go inside it :idea:


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Great advert for WON engine building services
PostPosted: Thu Nov 26, 2009 12:36 am 
Offline
Site Admin

Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:07 pm
Posts: 18701
Location: Doncaster
It's very unlikely to be the port work and much more likely to be the CORRECT setting up of the valve clearances.

My bet is the VAST MAJORITY of people who build engines will not go to the extreme trouble we went to, in order to get the valve lengths right and then set the clearances correctly.

Without doing all the above, you'll lose anything up to 50 hp through the valves being held open when they should be shut.

This is EXACTLY the work I did on the Rover V8 engines I built that made FAR MORE power and torque TOTALLT STANDARD than fully built race modified engines from other companies, PLUS mine were still running many years later when there's needed rebuilding within months and sometimes even weeks.

You are ENTIRELY CORRECT that it's MORE IMPORTANT to build the engine CORRECTLY than what parts you put in to it. :yes:

_________________
Regards

Trev (The WIZARD of NOS)

30 years of nitrous experience and counting!!!!


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
 Post subject: Re: Great advert for WON engine building services
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2010 10:39 pm 
Offline
Wizard

Joined: Tue Feb 08, 2005 6:43 am
Posts: 886
Location: UK
Just thought I'd add an update to this thread for the sake of archieving the info for some other celica fan in the future.

I got the high lift cam tuned at the dyno last week. I didn't go to the same dyno as last time, so yes, the figures aren't directly comparable. However, there is an ample increase is power and I'm happy with the result.

213whp from the 1.8 litre 4 cyl engine.

Image

Mod list that is relevant:
PPE 3" Cold Air Intake
Ported TB > Ported IM
NGK BKR7EIX plugs on 0.0433 gap
Ported head (not ported much apparently :mrgreen: )
Mahle 12.3:1 forged pistons (revision 2 pistons)
MWR/Supertech valves
MWR/Eibach valve springs
Piper Stage 3 cams > new rockers
Crower rods > ACL bearings mains + rods
Circuitworks oil pump gears
MWR alt > water pump pullies
TRD 'stat > new oem rad recently fitted
PPE header - (long tube race manifold)
2.5" straight through exhaust
Power FC ECU

Pity that WON don't offer engine building services anymore, but I'm glad I got mine done from them. The other highest N/A number that I know of is 212whp in Puerto Rico.

Anyway, I will update this thread once again when I get my intake manifold in the autumn.


Top
 Profile  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

  • Advertisement
Wizards of NOS Sparkplugs
Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Group  
Design By Poker Bandits