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 Post subject: Re: hydro injection system
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 6:13 pm 
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Control on all vehicle types is beneficial Nige, as well as the improved efficiency of nitrous use that you acknowledged.

Without a progressive the power delivery is entirely at the whim of the potentially uncontrollable excess fuel available.

If enough fuel is available to make more power/torque than can be used at low road speeds, then a progressive unit is essential to maximise acceleration, just as much on a diesel as it is on petrol.

With regard to which fuel to use, my own preference is propane, despite the extra control cost in addition to water injection.

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 Post subject: Re: hydro injection system
PostPosted: Fri Feb 19, 2010 11:39 pm 
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Noswizard wrote:
Control on all vehicle types is beneficial Nige, as well as the improved efficiency of nitrous use that you acknowledged.
I completely agree control is everything.However in Mike's case I was under the impression that he has no fuel excess and is looking at using lpg and water/meth injection to supply the fuel.

Without a progressive the power delivery is entirely at the whim of the potentially uncontrollable excess fuel available.
It is my understanding that fuel will control the combustion not the nitrous

If enough fuel is available to make more power/torque than can be used at low road speeds, then a progressive unit is essential to maximise acceleration, just as much on a diesel as it is on petrol.
I don't think Mike has any excess fuel and is looking to add it.In my opinion it is more important(in a diesel) to control the fuel addition than the nitrous.The system is designed to run on excess air,power production is controlled by fuel input.

With regard to which fuel to use, my own preference is propane, despite the extra control cost in addition to water injection.

As you know I'm using a modified fuel pulsoid to inject liquid lpg on my bike.We have also discussed your wi kit too,I'm pretty sure wi would be of huge benefit with a dry fuel like propane,unfortunately I haven't got any boost pressure to use as a propellant.Steve (rapidblue) has informed us that liquid lpg is a big no no on diesel.On further discussion he explained some of the mishaps he has had and how little lpg is needed.

Sorry if you think my post was a bit strange but I was thinking out side the box.With limitted funds I would have thought it far more important to be in full control of the fuel addition as on a diesel this is where you could do the most damage.

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 Post subject: Re: hydro injection system
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 12:19 am 
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battyone wrote:
I completely agree control is everything.However in Mike's case I was under the impression that he has no fuel excess and is looking at using lpg and water/meth injection to supply the fuel.
We'd discussed the 'potential' that he may have more than he appreciates a bit earlier, so a grey area at present.
Which ever route he takes, he should end up in a position where the control will be beneficial.

It is my understanding that fuel will control the combustion not the nitrous
Whilst it has a ruling role, my perspective on ALL combustion is that 'it takes two' ;)

I don't think Mike has any excess fuel and is looking to add it.In my opinion it is more important(in a diesel) to control the fuel addition than the nitrous.The system is designed to run on excess air,power production is controlled by fuel input.
Whatever excess he has will be out of his control and IF it was enough to make substantial gains (which is still unclear at this point), then the only form of control he could add/use would be to the nitrous flow, regardless of the overriding principles of how the engine works.

As you know I'm using a modified fuel pulsoid to inject liquid lpg on my bike.We have also discussed your wi kit too,I'm pretty sure wi would be of huge benefit with a dry fuel like propane,unfortunately I haven't got any boost pressure to use as a propellant.Steve (rapidblue) has informed us that liquid lpg is a big no no on diesel.On further discussion he explained some of the mishaps he has had and how little lpg is needed.
We've had NO problems using liquid LPG on diesels as long as you have WI and use 'restraint'.
The water tank for your application could be pressurised by a regulated propane arrangement or even gravity or even vac as the nitrous flow increases vac substantially.

Sorry if you think my post was a bit strange but I was thinking out side the box.With limitted funds I would have thought it far more important to be in full control of the fuel addition as on a diesel this is where you could do the most damage.
The reason for the difference in opinions, is because he may not have that option and my responses allow for that.



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 Post subject: Re: hydro injection system
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 10:32 am 
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battyone wrote:
Why do you need a progressive for nitrous on a diesel? you could put full flow of nitrous thru and it won't do anything until you add the required amount of fuel.Unless you plan on using huge amounts,so a full flow would be wasteful,you could use the minimax to control the fuel addition,which will need controlling and the WI.
I don't like the idea of wasting nitrous but yes, I do intend to use the fuel pulsoid.

battyone wrote:
With propane you can reduce your diesel use and increase your rev limit,ask Steve :lol: Diesel's have great potential.
Agreed!

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 Post subject: Re: hydro injection system
PostPosted: Sat Feb 20, 2010 8:47 pm 
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Here's a couple of pics for you;

Image

General parts rather than a specific kit;

Image

Tank is priced as an add on due to a selection of sizes being available and even a customer made option.

Polish is optional extra

Exact specification may differ slightly from these pics but they'll be reasonably representative of what you'll be buying.

And just for a bit of sport here is my revolutionary prototype of a water system I invented and then sent over to the USA to a TOP R&D company to appraise for a General Motors project (yes I've been close to some HUGE deals), only for it not to return. :x

May build another one some day;

Image

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 Post subject: Re: hydro injection system
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 11:13 am 
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My fuel pump can easily be tweaked to deliver excess fuel though how much is still not clear. As Trev knows, there's a max fuel screw on my pump that increases the overal delivery rate (for which he invented a nifty little plunger!). Some say 180hp is max though I'm not convinced.

Either way, I want to experiment with propane and/or alcohol. I'm leaning more towards propane following Trev's observations. I can also fit a larger delivery head off a transit pump but there's reports of this causing problems from idle. I'm certainly not short of options to try, that's for sure.

I'm also concerned that, as on-boost fuelling is linearly metered by boost, some excess will be injected and remain uncombusted (ie black smoke) unless the pump has been perfectly tuned which is unlikely from stock, so a dry kit fixed hit could very well cause unexpected and uncontrollable results.

Trev, that's a neat little pump compared (I know, I shouldn't!) to the competition that sell the sureflo's. If my car had ABS fitted, I wouldn't of being able to fit my pump.

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 Post subject: Re: hydro injection system
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 1:39 pm 
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Glad you like them Mike and you wouldn't believe that they can shift up to 150 GPH which is more than 100 more than is needed. :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: hydro injection system
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 2:42 pm 
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Joined: Tue Aug 26, 2008 2:51 pm
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Very impressive pumps! so small! what sort of pressure? should be plenty with that sort of flow rate.
As you mentioned boost pressure or gravity feed earlier I didn't think you were using a pump :lol:

The shurflo pumps may not be pretty or small,but they have been proven to be very reliable with a wide variety of media, from sewage to hot oil.Surely overkill for a bit of water/meth injection tho? :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: hydro injection system
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 4:20 pm 
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battyone wrote:
Very impressive pumps! so small! what sort of pressure? should be plenty with that sort of flow rate.
They can max out at about 12 psi, they are mainly flow not pressure pumps.

As you mentioned boost pressure or gravity feed earlier I didn't think you were using a pump :lol:
The boost is added on top of the pump pressure which is how a constant feed at the manifold is achieved.


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 Post subject: Re: hydro injection system
PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 10:43 pm 
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Location: Huntingdon trying to make a Skoda fast.
Noswizard wrote:

As you know I'm using a modified fuel pulsoid to inject liquid lpg on my bike.We have also discussed your wi kit too,I'm pretty sure wi would be of huge benefit with a dry fuel like propane,unfortunately I haven't got any boost pressure to use as a propellant.Steve (rapidblue) has informed us that liquid lpg is a big no no on diesel.On further discussion he explained some of the mishaps he has had and how little lpg is needed.
We've had NO problems using liquid LPG on diesels as long as you have WI and use 'restraint'.
The water tank for your application could be pressurised by a regulated propane arrangement or even gravity or even vac as the nitrous flow increases vac substantially.

[/quote]

Trev - I dont have to state how well your LPG, H2O and N2O on a tdi works!

My reasons for vapour and recommending rather than liquid -

On the Powershot 2000 system the yanks have, this is a gas system that must use vapour, the first time liquid splashes into the system (liquid in tank sloshes into outlet) Then the engines self destruct - TOO much propane. (typical of any sort of US system really :beatstick: )

I was going to use a powershot I got from TDIfurby but couldnt guarantee vapour to the unit especially when on track and with its usual driver. So we fitted an LPG system for diesels that runs ALL the time to provide better power and effective MPG (stretch the diesel) same as the powershot system but more tunable and less problems. This increases LPG with boost.

I did consider injecting very small amounts of liquid but could not run this system all the time as the lpg flow needs to vary. (when not WOT and on nitrous)

I also found that this is the safest way as it is more difficult to provide too much vapour than too much liquid. If you steadily increase the vapour on the evaporator unit you will get a tell tale knock before a big problem. On the liquid all the information I could get pointed at a big possibility of easily too much propane so a very quick destruction with not enough warning. Not having enough kit to do very small increases on liquid also contributed to this decision.

This is why I have gone vapour on the diesel and recommended staying away from liquid. Mainly as if you put too much propane in a spark engine it will just bog but on a diesel you get expensive problems!

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 Post subject: Re: hydro injection system
PostPosted: Mon Feb 22, 2010 5:39 pm 
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Been asked about the price of the water systems so I thought here would be as good a place as any to mention it.

Prices start from approx £345 NA & £435 for turbo.

NA don't need a special tank, so you can use anything but we do offer a customer tank making service.

The turbo systems NEED a substantially strong tank which we offer a range of sizes of and again a customer made service is also available.

Tanks start from a little as £25 for low pressure bottle shaped items and up to whatever on the specials.

All components have our lifetime guarantee (except the pump, as we can't buy a pump motor that won't wear at some rate or other - although the pump head itself never will wear as it's centrifugal and non-contacting) and as you'd expect made to the highest possible standard we can achieve.

Most parts are anodised billet alloy and as you can see from the pics they look even better than they sound.

As a little opener to get sales going again (as I've rather neglected them since the nitrous business took off over 15 years ago now), as well as to motivate me to put some time and effort in to marketing them properly and also to get back on the R&D trail with them, I'll throw in free postage and no VAT charge (17.5% discount), until I return from America. :cheers:

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 Post subject: Re: hydro injection system
PostPosted: Tue Feb 23, 2010 11:50 pm 
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hi trev thanks for posting the prices, as i run no airbox on my suzuki bandit i would need to inject directly into the intake ports, would i be able to do this with one solonoid and four injectors, and would i need to increase the pressure of the pump as i dont run a turbo, do you jet at the injector or at the solonoid as with your nitrous kits, very interested in putting a kit together unfortunately my birthday isnt untill november so looks like the wife might get one for hers if she says she dosnt like it i know where its going :twisted: cheers vic :


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 Post subject: Re: hydro injection system
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 2:42 am 
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kernowmc wrote:
hi trev thanks for posting the prices, as i run no airbox on my suzuki bandit i would need to inject directly into the intake ports, would i be able to do this with one solonoid and four injectors,
Yes as long as you also had either our Y-Blocks or D-blocks to split the flow.

and would i need to increase the pressure of the pump as i dont run a turbo,
No, low pressure is good as it makes the water easier to be picked up and 'atomised' as much as possible by the airflow. Very high pressures (as used by ERL) will atomise the water very well but that causes other issues.

do you jet at the injector or at the solonoid as with your nitrous kits,
No the jets are located at the injector because such small volumes are needed that distribution would be an issue any other way.

very interested in putting a kit together unfortunately my birthday isnt untill november so looks like the wife might get one for hers if she says she dosnt like it i know where its going :twisted: cheers vic :
Sound like you know how to treat a woman. :yes: :rofl:


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 Post subject: Re: hydro injection system
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 6:31 pm 
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Noswizard wrote:
kernowmc wrote:
very interested in putting a kit together unfortunately my birthday isnt untill november so looks like the wife might get one for hers if she says she dosnt like it i know where its going :twisted: cheers vic :
Sound like you know how to treat a woman. :yes: :rofl:

Or he's learnt to sleep with one eye open :twisted:

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 Post subject: Re: hydro injection system
PostPosted: Wed Feb 24, 2010 7:48 pm 
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That would be really funny if it weren't for my best friend having failed to do just that and ended up with his insane wife's stiletto heal plunged in to his eyeball as a consequence, so be warned. :(

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