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 Post subject: extra fuel
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 3:13 pm 
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hi all
i guess this question is aimed at trevor really..i recently sent a query about the added fuel required with a nitrous kit on my none smoking remapped bmw 320d 2004 150hp model ,lisa replied with lots of info (thanks for that) :) a hydro injection system - the Flow Master was advised..now my question is this can i get the basic jet size running without added fuel just yet as i must admit hadnt really budgeted for the flow master price wise :redface: many thanks ;)

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 Post subject: Re: extra fuel
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:05 pm 
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In short, yes.
I'm assuming the "hydro" injection will actually be alcohol/water? If so, the alcohol will be the fuel addition for the nitrous so although you can inject nitrous on it's own and you could see an improvement (due to reduced intake charge, possible ECU adjustments and better diesel combustion), I doubt it will be anywhere near the power you'll get with fuel combined. :mrgreen:

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 Post subject: Re: extra fuel
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 6:32 pm 
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Thanks for that mike...i will just keep putting more coins in the nos piggy bank for a while longer :)

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 Post subject: Re: extra fuel
PostPosted: Tue Feb 16, 2010 9:56 pm 
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MikeT wrote:
In short, yes.
I'm assuming the "hydro" injection will actually be alcohol/water? If so, the alcohol will be the fuel addition for the nitrous so although you can inject nitrous on it's own and you could see an improvement (due to reduced intake charge, possible ECU adjustments and better diesel combustion), I doubt it will be anywhere near the power you'll get with fuel combined. :mrgreen:


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 Post subject: Re: extra fuel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 12:19 pm 
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@ teddybear. If you want more power it would be alot cheaper and you would have constantly more power all of the time if you just fit a larger turbo . If you still want more power after your injectors are maxed out with the bigger turbo just get bigger injectors. Don`t forget that with the extra power you will need an uprated clutch fitted at some stage.

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 Post subject: Re: extra fuel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:02 pm 
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Most people who want nitrous have enough power most of the time, so they don't need more all the time.

Furthermore, when 'all' factors are taken in to account, it is still normal for nitrous to be the cheapest option.

A turbo only adds more air, so more fuel is still needed and if the injectors can flow more when a turbo is fitted, then they can do so on nitrous and in that case the price comparison would be even more in favour of nitrous

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 Post subject: Re: extra fuel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:35 pm 
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Thanks for your comments mickeyboy,i as alot of members im sure have pondered about how to get power the best way, i did come to trevs conclusion about nitrous tho...best all round solution for me..its those pesky seat cupras and ford st i wanna shock at the traffic lights thats all :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: extra fuel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 1:45 pm 
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The BMW engine is already run 'harder' than the VAG equivalents. By harder I mean nearer the top end of available fuel/air from the combination of pump etc. A lot of Remap people comment on this when doing a BMW as opposed to say a VAG.
Remap on a 130bhp VAG you can get to 185bhp on a 150 BMW you may only get to 170bhp for example.

It does not mean they are less reliable or anything like that just if you want more power all the time then you WILL need both a turbo and injectors. This for a VAG PD is £2500 to start and then fitting and remap costs. With this sort of mod a remap is essential. And at the same time a bigger clutch will be needed (might be a bigger engine one that will fit though)

I have been using Dervhead.com for reference as its quite a good source of just diesel - not really any nitrous over there as all of us who use N2O are over here :lol:

If you practice your launches you will beat the fwd cars - the BMW can get the power down whereas the others will sit and spin.

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 Post subject: Re: extra fuel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 2:37 pm 
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i did google it, but for the proper answer can you tell me whats meant by vag pd ..i just know its going to be obvious :rolleyes: soz

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 Post subject: Re: extra fuel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 3:29 pm 
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Sorry Bear
Vag is Volkswagen and PD is the system of the very best of the kind diesels (in my biased opinion)

here are the TLA's (three letter acronyms) and what they refer to. Also a few wikipedia links that might help for what I'm going on about.

VAG - Volkswagen Audi Group - VeeDub, Audi, Skoda, Seat, Bugatti etc
PD - pumpe duse - unit injector. It is basically 1 pump per cylinder to put the diesel in. The pump is operated off the camshaft. The fuel is lifted from the tank and flows to the unit injectors at low pressure, then the injector pumps this to high pressure for injection and a signal from the ECU triggers the unit to inject for a set time at the right moment or even several times.
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit_Injector

A few more for reference:
PSA - Peugeot and Citroen

CR (common Rail) which has the injectors working like taps to turn on and off the fuel. the fuel is lifted from the tank then another pump puts the fuel up to high pressure in a rail that the injectors get their fuel from. This means the injector can inject any time, as often and when ever the ECU triggers it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_rail

'Conventional' pump / distribution pump.
This has a line from the pump to each injector. The fuel is lifted to this pump and the pump takes care of how much fuel and when it is injected and which order. The injector for these just lets diesel flow when it gets to a set pressure (cracks off) and then stops when it drops below a set pressure. The ECU controls the timing of the injection and how long the injection but that is all it can do.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Injection_pump

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 Post subject: Re: extra fuel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:04 pm 
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Thanks alot for all that info rapidblue your a gent, i do know i have the common rail thingy :) ...so when im ready to order and get the gear from trev i will say..make my car beat a vag pd car please :D

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 Post subject: Re: extra fuel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:19 pm 
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Noswizard wrote:
Most people who want nitrous have enough power most of the time, so they don't need more all the time.

Furthermore, when 'all' factors are taken in to account, it is still normal for nitrous to be the cheapest option.

A turbo only adds more air, so more fuel is still needed and if the injectors can flow more when a turbo is fitted, then they can do so on nitrous and in that case the price comparison would be even more in favour of nitrous


teddybare only has a remapped car from what i understand so he hasn`t even done the dasic hybrid turbo upgrade yet. How can nitrous be a cheaper when a refill is £60 odd and will last about 10 minutes of constant use when a remapped car with a hybrid turbo you have the power all the time. To have a hybrid turbo fitted and mapped is about £1500 after that no extra cost and constant extra power. Use a bottle every two weeks ( which a bottle can be used in one hour easily when used ) £60 x 26 times a year = £1560 before you buy and fit the kit. I know this is a nitrous forum but no way is nitrous cheap to use and a hybrid turbo is a much cheaper mod for constant extra power then nitrous otherwise everyone would be running nitrous instead of fitting a hybrid turbo. You stated " a turbo only adds more air" well thats all your doing with nitrous but nitrous comes in a bottle and soon runs out then the bottle needs to be refilled at about £60 before you have that power again where as a turbo doesn`t run out of air or need refilling etc and so gives constant extra power gain with no extra cost or messing about with refills etc.

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 Post subject: Re: extra fuel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:59 pm 
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I'm FULLY AWARE of ALL the factors involved but you OBVIOUSLY ARE NOT.

If you'd read my book you would have been, so I suggest you do.

When I posted my original response I emphasised the words 'ALL' factors and until YOU are aware of and have consider them ALL, your statement is of no worth, because it's based on incomplete information.

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 Post subject: Re: extra fuel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:00 pm 
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Hi :)

You said "a turbo doesn`t run out of air or need refilling etc and so gives constant extra power gain with no extra cost or messing about with refills etc."

Thats totally untrue....

There is NO free power from anywhere....

You fit a bigger turbo, you USE MORE FUEL.... plus the cost of the turbo and labour...plus extra Insurance....

There are other disadvantages to a bigger turbo as well, like LAG ...which Nitrous does not have, plus there is a limit to how much extra hp you will get from a turbo, which does not apply to Nitrous....

All the best Brett :)

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 Post subject: Re: extra fuel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:18 pm 
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i havent caused trouble have i :D ...you got any turbos trev ...only jokin :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: extra fuel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:22 pm 
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Brett928S2 wrote:
Hi :)

You said "a turbo doesn`t run out of air or need refilling etc and so gives constant extra power gain with no extra cost or messing about with refills etc."

Thats totally untrue....

There is NO free power from anywhere....

You fit a bigger turbo, you USE MORE FUEL.... plus the cost of the turbo and labour...plus extra Insurance....



I had already quoted the cost of supplying/fitting/mapping the turbo as that is something most people with half a brain realise they need to pay for (which came to less then 1 years supply of nitrous) plus the extra insurance . Insuring a car with a hybrid turbo is less then a car running nitrous for the same power so nitrous losses out there as well. The more diesel used depends on what extra power is needed. With using nitrous the owner is paying for diesel AND exspensive nitrous to gt the power so double cost hit again. I can tell by the polite responce i have had from Brett928S2 and the respoce from nozwizard that i am wasting my time. At the end of the day it`s a free world and if you guys want to think you are right and everyone else in the tuning world including me are wrong thats up to you.

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 Post subject: Re: extra fuel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:40 pm 
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Devonmikeyboy wrote:
Brett928S2 wrote:
Hi :)

You said "a turbo doesn`t run out of air or need refilling etc and so gives constant extra power gain with no extra cost or messing about with refills etc."

Thats totally untrue....

There is NO free power from anywhere....

You fit a bigger turbo, you USE MORE FUEL.... plus the cost of the turbo and labour...plus extra Insurance....


At the end of the day it`s a free world and if you guys want to think you are right and everyone else in the tuning world including me are wrong thats up to you.


Hi :)

Weird that..for most of my life, including years as a Top Fuel Crew chief , people have been saying to me, I am wrong and everyone else in the world is right....

I am now 57 and around 99.9% of the time I was eventually proved to have been right in the first place....

If you seriously believe a Turbo of any size can outperform Nitrous at a cheaper cost, then yes you are in the wrong place, as here we like open minded people, who will listen to Trev, who IS the foremost Nitrous expert in the WORLD, bar none, in my opinion...

All the best Brett :)

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 Post subject: Re: extra fuel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:54 pm 
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teddybare wrote:
i havent caused trouble have i :D ...you got any turbos trev ...only jokin :lol:

ONLY for those who choose to IGNORE the greater knowledge and experience of their elders. :idea: ;)

As it happens we are now agents for AET Turbos and we'll be adding their range to our website ASAP, so if you choose that option we'll be able to assist you on that option as well but for the MANY BENEFICIAL reason the vast majority of WON customers ARE AWARE OF I'd stick to your original plan, because IN REAL WORLD scenarios with EVERYTHING taken in to consideration (rather than using the selectively limited means that Mickey is using), it is the best overall.

Since I've spent the last 35 years adding nitrous to EVERY KIND OF VEHICLE ON THE PLANET (MANY turbo cars included) and 40 plus years LEARNING about ALL forms of power enhancement, I think you'll be smart enough to decide who is likely to provide you with the MOST INFORMED advice on this subject.

Brett's comments are perfectly correct and vary from vehicle to vehicle.

You should ignore Mickey's comments not because they are untrue but because they are based on inadequate information and therefore at least NOT PROVED IN FACT, in exactly the same way as you should ignore his ENTIRELY INCORRECT sweeping statement about nitrous cars costing more to insure than a turbo car of the same power, because I have NUMEROUS customers who have had REDUCED insurance premiums for nitrous compared to NA quotes, never mind turbo quotes, so once again his statement is based on INADEQUATE INFORMATION that he is ASSUMING he has adequate knowledge of INCORRECTLY.

Most aspects of life are far too varied to make any such sweeping statements without looking stupid and as Brett will confirm, you realise this awareness that generalised sweeping statements are to be avoided more and more as you get older. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: extra fuel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:05 pm 
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Strange old world isn't Brett old boy!!!!

At 16 years of age I 'THOUGHT' I knew everything about everything, yet over 40 years later and as each day goes by I realise HOW LITTLE I KNOW, despite having spent the past 40 years DEDICATED TO LEARNING.

These young lads have got that realisation to come.

Big tip Mickey;

STOP USING SWEEPING GENERALISATIONS YOU CAN'T BACK UP WITH FACTS - BIG MISTAKE!!!

Even IF you had spoken to EVERY tuning expert in the world about the subject of nitrous Vs turbo and they'd ALL told you what you claim to be the case - NONE OF THEM (JUST LIKE YOU) have remotely adequate experience of nitrous use to make such a judgement correctly - ONLY 'I' have adequately extensive knowledge of BOTH forms of tuning use to do that.

Just some WISE advice from a YOUNG man (I wish), whose getting older and wiser every day.

The best you can say that could be said to be true, is that in SOME CASES it would work out cheaper to use a turbo than a nitrous system and even then you'd have to state ALL the parameters that are being taken in to account, now that's the correct and WISE way to deal with the situation based on your LIMITED amount of knowledge on the subject.

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 Post subject: Re: extra fuel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:15 pm 
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You know trev it boils down to something you said about the power of a car for normal driving ..i love my car the way it is with just the map very nippy and lovely to drive but like i said it cant match the getaway of a cupra or a st focus ..so its that nice shot in the arm you can have from nitrous it what im looking forward too :D oh and brett im 57 in march and my lady friend tells me im always wrong :)
regards ted

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 Post subject: Re: extra fuel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:17 pm 
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Welcome to the OLD TIMERS CLUB Ted and that was ONE of the factors I was eluding to when I informed Mickey that he was NOT taking all the appropriate info in to account.

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 Post subject: Re: extra fuel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:43 pm 
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oh trev dont.. Welcome to the OLD TIMERS CLUB i can remember way back "strip teaser" a jag engined mini at santa pod and i had hair then too :D

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 Post subject: Re: extra fuel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:56 pm 
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:lol: Thankfully I still have all my hair and Brett is also one of the lucky few in that regard. :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: extra fuel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:04 pm 
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Noswizard wrote:
:lol: Thankfully I still have all my hair and Brett is also one of the lucky few in that regard. :lol:



Hi Trev :)

Thats true but its not quite the same colour nowadays lol :)

All the best Brett :)

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 Post subject: Re: extra fuel
PostPosted: Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:20 pm 
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Yeah well - you old timers :P

me - Im not past 40 yet (physical age), Mentally ...... well........ Hair............ going fast.

So far I have found on diesels that bigger turbos dont cost as much on fuel as a similar mod on petrols but they do cost more to run - and servicing has to be done more often.

We are looking at a bigger turbo on the furby but have an issue with fitting it in the space. The turbo we were supplied (at £2500 from some company that went bankrupt then opened up under another name soon after- grr nuvver story) was purchased as the part to do a fabia but unfortunately is only suitable for golf/a4 or bigger car!

New nozzles for the PD injectors are £100 a piece and then £150 a piece to fit!

Compared to the costs of the nitrous kit, water injection kit and LPG - no comparison and the LPG stretches the diesel for cheeper running.

In my experience and opinion there is no comparison on cost if you want a quick boost!

And there is something about having a bottle of Nitrous in the boot............

So where abouts are you ted?

Any chance of you coming and running with us at the Pod sometime? Xmas trees are SO much more fun than the traffic lights!

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