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 Post subject: Re: Water injection with nitrous
PostPosted: Thu Jan 22, 2009 7:29 pm 
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MikeT wrote:
Unless that recording is damping it, it sounded far quieter than a petrol engine, so quiet you could clearly hear the turbo, as you say, sounding more like a jet turbine. It's a good point about the gearbox restricting times as I thought I noticed a distinct drop off of power or acceleration partway through. There must be a serious problem to overcome if CVT boxes can't be made strong enough, they totally eliminate gearchanges while insuring full power is being applied, efficiently, throughout the run, at any speed. :yes:
Need twist and go like scooters,I understand improvements are being made in belt technology.Snowmobiles use cvts and people race them.But that would be ideal for a diesel,set for max torque revs :beatstick:

I read and saw that Banks stuff, the sidewinder is truly a MPV! I also understand Banks race diesel dragsters using nitrous. As someone else commented - it's the only way they can run those times (meaning it hides the fact their standard tuining products are impotent :lol: ).
As i understand it,because egt is the limiting factor on diesels it gets progressively more difficult to drive a turbo harder-it's heat that drives a turbo- tuners are having to use sequential/compound turbo charging to get more air in.I guess simply put they reach a choke point,nitrous would then be a handy get out of jail free card :lol:
I think Trev mentioned talking to one of Banks' guys about WON then the guy went and left.


Interestingly, and I bet Banks don't use WON, they're reportedly said to have melted all the pistons in their "Duratech" - whatever diesel vehicle that is.

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 Post subject: Re: Water injection with nitrous
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 12:09 pm 
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I agree, it seems nitrous is the perfect accompliment to tuning turbo diesels. Many truck drivers know that towing or hill climbing sees high EGT's and have to drop a gear to compensate. Some might fumigate with propane to aid towing power but again that causes high EGTs. Simple solution, inject a bit of nitrous!

Right, getting back on topic for now, I've come full circle on my WI ratio beliefs as I've learned the pump makers (shurflo) state 100% methanol is flammable and if it leaks (either into the pump or into the engine bay) it can cause a fire. Fair enough!

Otherwise, I've been reading quite a lot on the subject recently and I still can't find any imperical evidence that injecting <50% alcohol is damaging unless it causes an overfuelling situation. IOW, it's not an issue confined to WI usage and the advice I was given remains unsubstantiated. If alcohol makes enough power to break engines, that's all I need to know for now :yes:

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 Post subject: Re: Water injection with nitrous
PostPosted: Wed May 27, 2009 3:12 pm 
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TDIfurby wrote:
I am hoping my new mapping will be sorted end of this week (some non NOS/Water-meth related issues) and I will fully be able to use my setup.

I do however plan to install my nozzle in the inlet manifold so that water/meth goes direct into the inlet at the point of injection and not wind it's way through my intercooler system for a while before. All long term plans. 8)


Any updates on these plans seeing as it's been a fair while since posting this? (just re-reading some old posts to remind me of what I've forgotten :lol: )

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 Post subject: Re: Water injection with nitrous
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 12:44 am 
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So ppl, can we put NOS with Water/Methanol injection, in safe?
Do we will obtain much more power with both, or only NOS do the job?
;)


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 Post subject: Re: Water injection with nitrous
PostPosted: Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:01 am 
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Both together can make more power than each alone but you have to be very careful getting the ratio right.

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 Post subject: Re: Water injection with nitrous
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 2:21 pm 
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Thought i'd resurrect this one as I've been doing some more WI research for my next project.

50/50 water /methanol mixes are quoted as making the best power increases from WI.
while more water has a greater effect on detonation control.

50/50 is also a safe mix, ie it will not burn - until water is "boiled" off

at mixtures above 60% alcohol the Mixture is flammable.

Interestingly most industrial research into WI has found that it has no effect on EGT.

And it is now more likely that ethanol would be used rather than methanol.

Anyone got a WI kit going cheap?

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 Post subject: Re: Water injection with nitrous
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 6:01 pm 
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The above is why I always err on the side of water, when mixing my water/meth mixtures for the car. I probably end up usually, with a 45% meth mix, maybe 40%.

As for mixing with gas, well, at the moment I am doing a serious rebuild (engine coming out this week) to ensure my turbo/engine never goes wrong again. As it is, nitrous is not being factored into any work going on. It will simply be a bonus if using nitrous at the end results in a bit more power. Going for somewhere around 310-320bhp without gas.

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 Post subject: Re: Water injection with nitrous
PostPosted: Sun Nov 29, 2009 7:19 pm 
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How do you build a stronger diesel motor?
Should be interesting?
I remember you posting about blowing your turbo up,but have you suffered engine damage?

IIRC you've been using WI for awhile,do you experience a genuine improvement for using it?

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 Post subject: Re: Water injection with nitrous
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 8:00 am 
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Nope - thankfully the turbo just spectacularly blew the exhaust side, and the entire compressor wheel went through my straight through exhaust and is now lying somewhere on the right hand side of the Nurburgring, on the hill up toward the Karussel! :rofl:

Was told that the stock rods might start bending at 300bhp so replacing them with forged items from Rosten, just in case, and whilst the head is away getting breathed on again.

W/I definitely helps, using the same software. The first time I fitted it, I ran it water alone (as I'd not found a bulk supplier for meth) and even then it was pretty damn good. Then I stuck in some methanol..... Hoping once my new setup is up and running, some fresh mapping will really help the power.

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 Post subject: Re: Water injection with nitrous
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 5:00 pm 
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There will be a point in the increasing power level where 50% water will be detrimental to performance, so whilst 'modest' increases will return the results you found Nige, much the same as nitrous injection, there isn't ONE rule that covers ALL instances of use.

The above statement is based on the following facts;

If you take an engine that makes say 200 hp and add 50 hp via water/meth injection, the percentage of the whole which is fuel is only increased 20%, so the percentage of water to the other ingredients in the mix is 'relatively' small.

Now step it up to a 200 hp increase and we have an increase of 50% of the whole and therefore a 'relatively' huge increase in the percentage which is now water.

It's my 'opinion' although I have no absolute proof either way, is that you would need a diminishingly lesser percentage of water as you increase the power.

Although I have no absolute proof of this, I do have feedback from a MAJOR R&D company who confirm that too much water is detrimental to performance, to the point of making less power when using water than when not using it.
I believe this was without methanol but the water aspect will still apply regardless of whether methanol is being used or not.

There is one other complication of this combination and that is that methanol alone will do most of what water achieves, so how does anyone know that the water is doing ANY GOOD at all!?!?!?!

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 Post subject: Re: Water injection with nitrous
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:30 pm 
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Noswizard wrote:
.

There is one other complication of this combination and that is that methanol alone will do most of what water achieves, so how does anyone know that the water is doing ANY GOOD at all!?!?!?!


There is genuine scientific evidence that water injection prevents detonation.Ricardo did plenty of testing.

It cannot make power,but it can enable more power to be made.

My purpose in reactivating this thread was to see if any more had been learnt in the interim.

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 Post subject: Re: Water injection with nitrous
PostPosted: Mon Nov 30, 2009 11:40 pm 
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Most of the info I can find suggests that the amount of water added be 15-20% of the total fuel load

There seems to be a lot of talk about using WI with nitrous in the states,but no direct references to anyone using it.

I'm trying to decide whether it's worth pursuing and if it is do I buy a recognised set up or go diy.

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 Post subject: Re: Water injection with nitrous
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:19 am 
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battyone wrote:
There is genuine scientific evidence that water injection prevents detonation.Ricardo did plenty of testing.

It cannot make power,but it can enable more power to be made.

I'm fully aware of all that but my point is SO DOES METHANOL (and it can obviously make power as well), therefore when adding BOTH water and methanol how do we know which is doing the job.

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 Post subject: Re: Water injection with nitrous
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 9:25 am 
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Noswizard wrote:
battyone wrote:
There is genuine scientific evidence that water injection prevents detonation.Ricardo did plenty of testing.

It cannot make power,but it can enable more power to be made.

I'm fully aware of all that but my point is SO DOES METHANOL (and it can obviously make power as well), therefore when adding BOTH water and methanol how do we know which is doing the job.


I guess in real terms we have to go with the previous scientific findings.
As I understand it water has a greater specific heat than even methanol,therefore will remove more heat from the combustion chamber.

In most of the situations discussed here,methanol can't be used on it's own as it is flammable and could turn your intake system into a pipe bomb,where as when mixed with more than 40% water it becomes nonflammable.Rather like nitrous it then requires the heat of the combustion chamber to separate the mix.
I believe that most of the "commercial" pumps are not capable of dealing with 100% methanol.

There seems to be lots of people/companies selling very similar kits but not much in the way of current facts.They all just use the same Ricardo comments and WW2 fighter plane examples.It's very much like the nitrous world full of myth and legend.Also some down right lies about lower egts and improved fuel economy :?:

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 Post subject: Re: Water injection with nitrous
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 12:59 pm 
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battyone wrote:
I guess in real terms we have to go with the previous scientific findings.
As I understand it water has a greater specific heat than even methanol,therefore will remove more heat from the combustion chamber.
I doubt you can make a simple statement like that, without determining the weights of both, rather than base it on the volumes being the same, because if my memory serves me right specific heat is based on weight and therefore although you may supply the same volume of both, one will weigh more than the other.

In most of the situations discussed here,methanol can't be used on it's own as it is flammable and could turn your intake system into a pipe bomb,
True but that hasn't stopped most people from doing the same with nitrous systems, so I doubt that's going to stop anyone doing the same with a water/meth system.

I believe that most of the "commercial" pumps are not capable of dealing with 100% methanol.
Correct and most can't handle even lesser percentages for long. It's also why most companies promote (what I think is a myth), that water/meth should be used in no more than a 50:50 mix.

There seems to be lots of people/companies selling very similar kits but not much in the way of current facts.They all just use the same Ricardo comments and WW2 fighter plane examples.It's very much like the nitrous world full of myth and legend.Also some down right lies about lower egts and improved fuel economy :?:
Agreed, although I did design a greatly improved system but I never got round to testing it on a vehicle or putting it in to production. It did however work extremely well on the bench and produced the ultimate in atomised water.

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 Post subject: Re: Water injection with nitrous
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 8:05 pm 
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The fact that pure methanol corrodes aluminum is a very good reason not to spray pure methanol into modern aluminum engines.

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Now have a fully CRYO treated engine/gearbox, GT3067V turbo,tubular manifold,water/methanol,forged rods,ported head etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Water injection with nitrous
PostPosted: Tue Dec 01, 2009 11:40 pm 
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Methanol will react with most materials BUT it's only really a problem if it's sat in permanent contact with it (especially if there is no flow), therefore it can be used on a modern engine (BTW there's NOTHING different about a modern engine compared to an old engine when it comes to compatibility with methanol) without any problems, as long as the fuel system is suitable to handle it.

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 Post subject: Re: Water injection with nitrous
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 11:21 am 
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TDIfurby wrote:
Nope - thankfully the turbo just spectacularly blew the exhaust side, and the entire compressor wheel went through my straight through exhaust and is now lying somewhere on the right hand side of the Nurburgring, on the hill up toward the Karussel! :rofl:

Was told that the stock rods might start bending at 300bhp so replacing them with forged items from Rosten, just in case, and whilst the head is away getting breathed on again.

W/I definitely helps, using the same software. The first time I fitted it, I ran it water alone (as I'd not found a bulk supplier for meth) and even then it was pretty damn good. Then I stuck in some methanol..... Hoping once my new setup is up and running, some fresh mapping will really help the power.


Wow. Just wow.

Is there somewhere you have have a build thread? I NEED to know how you go looking for 300 brake...


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 Post subject: Re: Water injection with nitrous
PostPosted: Thu Dec 03, 2009 8:16 pm 
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fran9r wrote:
Wow. Just wow.

Is there somewhere you have have a build thread? I NEED to know how you go looking for 300 brake...



I don't really, but I will try to get as many as possible when the rebuild starts. The foundation of 300bhp though is a big turbo. A garrett 2260vk is supposed to be a real nice one, which is why I am fitting one to my engine.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELWqeeXvAAs 275bhp dyno run video of my car. 300 is in reach!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R5c496IG1Q Skoda Fabia 2260vk in-car acceleration video!


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 Post subject: Re: Water injection with nitrous
PostPosted: Mon Dec 14, 2009 9:14 pm 
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Hi, new here but was advised to visit by WON, I have a V10 touareg which will be running a twin PDI chip from Diesel Tunit, giving a possible 390hp, but for occasional weekend stealthcar dragstrip fun, want to fit nitrous to get nearer to 600hp. However, the chip will only increase fuel supply by 15-20% giving another 80hp, this led to the suggestion of water/methanol as a supplementary fuel supply to gain the extra power. Anybody got any suggestions as to which w/m system to use, flow rates, etc.....alternatively, who and where to go to in the UK to advise/fit. I know it's a very wide set of questions but you've got to start somewhere.


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 Post subject: Re: Water injection with nitrous
PostPosted: Tue Dec 15, 2009 11:03 pm 
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I think first off, in regard to purely the water/methanol install, speak to Jabbasport who a) are good with their VAGs (although not heard of them doing any Touareg work) and b) are the UK agent for Snow Performance.

A stage 3 kit might get you somewhere, and with the V10 engine, I bet you could dump a shedload of water/meth in there compared to my 1.9 4 pot.

As you said though, once you've exhausted the fuelling, the benefits of chucking lots of nitrous in there is a waste.

PS: Aren't those engines something like 600 lb/ft in stock form? :bow:

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Pushing 1.9 TDI tuning to the limit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELWqeeXvAAs 275bhp dyno run video of my car. 300 is in reach!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R5c496IG1Q Skoda Fabia 2260vk in-car acceleration video!


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 Post subject: Re: Water injection with nitrous
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:01 pm 
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Thanks for the info, I'll see what Jabba say. And yes the V10 is putting out 550ft/lb at present and 600after the weekend when I fit the chips. Alot of oomph and fair overtaking ability, but the idea of turning up to a dragstrip apparently in a tractor and then getting 12sec quarters appeals, and the look on impreza owners faces is worth a heap lol


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 Post subject: Re: Water injection with nitrous
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 1:50 pm 
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Hi Thevet, and welcome. I hope you stick around and let us know how things progress.

I can only advise to avoid CoolingMist as their kits are not good quality and their tech support is practically non-existant. Devil's Own seem to produce good components (except their progressive controllers IMO) and have their own support forum but no UK fitting agents that I know of. I don't know about the other brands so can't comment. Self-install is very straight-forward if you fancy a bit of DIY but it will take time to dial in the correct nozzles, mixture ratio and start of injection for best, safe performance.

One thing to bear in mind when getting it chipped if you're not aware is, while an excess of oxygen won't make more power it will keep the engine from melting. It is understood that a remap is the way to go, compared to off-the-shelf chips, as it's tailored to your specific engine on a dyno.

I'm quietly confident oil-burners will get ahead of the performance game versus petrol engines as they're some 20-years behind in engine development. Time will tell. The torque figures you're quoting are mind-boggling, what's the rev limit?

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 Post subject: Re: Water injection with nitrous
PostPosted: Wed Dec 16, 2009 5:54 pm 
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Rev limit will no doubt be somewhere around 4,500. 8)

I am a pessimist though, and not sure a Tourageg will do a 12 second pass, maybe a real high 12 with some serious tuning done.

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ELWqeeXvAAs 275bhp dyno run video of my car. 300 is in reach!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R5c496IG1Q Skoda Fabia 2260vk in-car acceleration video!


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 Post subject: Re: Water injection with nitrous
PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2011 10:06 pm 
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all v10 i have seen.. blows up there turboes and gearboxes.. im happy yours doesent.
what company can we buy a good kit from then.. have read that its best to have a solernoid at the end and not just the start stop of the pump to prevent drops...


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