NITROUS OXIDE ( nos / n2o ) advice forum

I MADE HISTORY TODAY!!!!

I've just returned from Dyno Speed Developments (DSD) where my new Smooooth progressive system was INDEPENDENTLY tested and witnessed by DSD and Dave Bailey on Dave's Busa that he kindly donated to my cause.

The system was COMPLETE and had been INDEPENDENTLY and FULLY fitted by Dave Bailey with no help from me, other than the original writen instructions (he's a smart chap - lol).

The system was set to a maximum limit of 70 bhp and a start power of ZERO. Four runs were made with different build up times to demonstrate the smoothness over a range of settings.


THE RESULT

The result to anyone who didn't know what the system was doing would have been unspectacular in it's perfection of power delivery.

There is nothing more noteable to say than the delivery was flawlessly smooth and perfect - just as I said it would be!!!

The AMAZING thing is that our FIRST on vehicle test of a FULL system was completed PERFECTLY and without any problems in less than 30 mins from start to end.

Oh and by the way it made 181 bhp standard and 247 bhp on gas (a 66 bhp increase). That was with VERY SAFE excessively rich and excessively retarded settings so there is far more to come from the system when more time is given to tuning the set up to optimum (our next job).

The real test will be on the Drag strip which I hope will be this weekend at the Pod.

I don't intend to apply for a patent on the 1st design that I'm going to put into production so that other companies can copy it, as this will send them off down the wrong track, allow me to get it in production quickly as well as saving me money.

I have a much better idea that I'm working on that I'll be launching approx. 18 months after launching the current one. This improved version will be simpler and much cheaper to manufacture. The current design is aimed at the Drag market while the follow on design will be aimed at street use as well. This plan allows me to get the top Drag guys (who are gagging for this product here and in the USA) fitted up and demonstrating the principles while I perfect the follow on system.

Right guys the Smooooth system performed perfectly on the dyno on Tuesday and we're now going to run the bike at the track on Sunday, so anyone wanting to witness the FIRST ever use of my new Smooooth system is welcome to come and watch.

I'll be posting a video clip and photos ASAP.

Anyone who suggest that the Smooooth system was not my invention should know that I invented both the pulsed and smooooth concepts over 20 years ago and although I may be repeating myself, I have at least 3 independent witnesses to prove.

If the British public had been as supportive of a British company as Americans are of their companies, the world could have had Smooooth nitrous delivery many years ago.

Just for the record I also have revolutionary inventions to achieve timed pulse injection and a positive manifold pressure system, both of which will work and will be put into production in a few years.

You may also be interested to learn that one of my early combined fuel and nitrous valves is as we speak, being used as a mechanical timed pulse nitrous injection system, on a sprint bike that resides in the IOM.

On the subject of my early combined valve design, it's still a much better concept than individual solenoids and I bet if I launched it today, people would love it, HolleyNOS & NX certainly did and they wanted me to supply the units to them but at a price that was unworkable.

dyno graphs:







life in the fast lane is tiring! roll on the winter - I'm planning on hibernating...

What a contrast between the 2 days of this weekend!!!!

Saturday drama as the gearbox got kicked out of bed on Dave's Promod bike and then the extreme serenity of the Smooooth system on his Busa on Sunday. It would have been impossible to get 2 more extreme days back to back than these last 2 have been.

Before I mention numbers, although they have been mentioned on the results thread elsewhere on this page of the forum, I think I need to remind people of a few things and explain what my goals where etc.

1) THIS UNIT IS THE FIRST UNPULSED SMOOOOTHLY PROGRESSIVE NITROUS SYSTEM EVER MADE!!!!!!
2) That's after everyone else has had 25 plus years to come up with something other than rebadged industrial solenoids.
3) I INVENTED "pulsed" nitrous systems some 20 plus years ago and trashed the idea in favour of the UNPULSED SMOOOOTH system that I invented soon after dumping the pulsed idea. I then went on to make the mechanics of a working prototype (as Brad can confirm) which resided in a drawer till a few months ago.
4) The reasons I haven't got to this point with the Smooooth system sooner (like 20 years sooner) are numerous;
i) The British consumers lack of appreciation of my early innovative ideas
ii) Lack of money as a consequence
iii) Lack of time
iv) Lack of market influence
v) Lack of American appreciation that pulsing solenoids (especially theirs) was a bad idea.
Etc. etc.
5) So with all the above in mind, the fact that this unit sailed through it's first Dyno session trouble free and produced exactly what I expected and predicted was a HUGE achievement.
6) For it then to sail through 9 runs on the track today without the slightest problem and yet again do exactly as I expected and predicted is a COLOSSAL achievement regardless of what times it produced.
7) I never expected Dave to run quicker than the previous set up, for a number of reasons (wont go in to those at this time unless I'm asked) and if he had that would have just been the cherry on the cake as far as I was concerned.

In actual fact it's his first and slowest run that was of most interest to me along with how Dave "felt" about the power delivery of the system.
His first comments after his slowest run were just what I wanted to hear "I couldn't tell if it was working".

Now the smart people out there will get why this was far more important than the end numbers but for everyone else it's this;
If the power delivery of a nitrous system can be that smooth that you can't tell the system is working, then you know you have the ULTIMATE CONTROL over it.
It's not all about how much power you can make, because as I've said before "power is useless without control", it's also about having TOTAL control.
The system added roughly 50 bhp on the first run (using soft settings but no where near as soft as it's possible to set this system) and yet Dave couldn't say for sure that it had added anything!!!!

In my opinion today was a 100% SUCCESS and gave me just a little taste of the AMAZING potential this new system will have to offer to my customers.

So with that said here are some numbers.

Bike with pulsed system fitted (AND FULLY FUNCTIONAL CLUTCH);
1) Max power 30 ish bhp
2) Start power 50% (15 bhp) which I believe was the max Dave could use as his start power setting!!!!!
3) Results - numerous low 9s one 8.9 @ ???? mph
All runs with good launches and decent 60 fts

Bike with Smooooth system fitted (with a kangaroo instead of a clutch);
1) Max power 66 bhp
2) Start power 50% (33 bhp)
3) Result 5 plus between 9.0s and 9.1s @ 166 mph
All runs with bad launches and bad 60 fts

By the way Dave wasn't using either system in the first 60 ft.

The fact that Dave could handle a start power on the Smooooth system of over TWICE what he was limited to on the pulsed system and was able to then add over TWICE the max power as a consequence PROVES the Smooooth system is a HUGE SUCCESS!!!!

But for the clutch problems I'm confident Dave would have run much quicker than on the Smooooth system and that would have been the cherry on the cake for us both.
Anyone who doesn't realise that this is an inevitable conclusion to draw from the results we obtained is a fool and if anyone out there fits in that category please refrain from making any posts, as I've got better things to do - like getting a load of Smooooth progressive manufactured!!!!

By the way the system worked so well in my opinion that I'm considering starting a new company to manufacture them called 2Smooooth4U

Nearly forgot to mention;
1) I let Brad have his say about the ignition timing and he said to take out 11 degrees - now in my opinion I think it would have been fine with stock timing and at worst 5 should have been well safe - so plenty more performance to come there!!!
2) I let Brad have his say on the fuel delivery (although he was tied slightly at this stage) which he set to excessively rich even at the full power settings so when it was only at low power it had way too much in there - so plenty more performance to come there!!!
3) We didn't bother about maintaining maximum bottle pressure (although it was a hot day so it wouldn't have been too bad).

Now each on it's own kills off the power bad enough but put the 3 together and you get worse results than just the sum of the 3. In other words there is a BOAT LOAD MORE TO COME FROM THIS SYSTEMS and remember it was ONLY a prototype on it's first "shakedown" outing!!!!!

Hmmmmm, NICE !
Just imagine how gentle thats being on the whole engine and transmission eh ?
Nitrous with more progression than either a turbo or supercharger and none of the charge heat

Yeah, you're right. People are never going to get that idea

I knew total control and very adjustable power like boost could be achieved. Now people can switch from a "street" setting to a "race" setting with greater confidence than the Maximiser progressive now. This way less nitrous is used which makes it more affordable and appealing.

Denny,

All very true and much more besides.

With staged and pulsed progressive systems there are inherent limitation to the use and capabillities of the systems, however with this new Smooooth systems those limits have been removed and the limit that a given engine / trans / vehicle can handle has been raised SUBSTANTIALLY, especially over the crude US made gear.

Loopy,

I have all the important numbers I need and they are those that prove my products are best - 1/4 times that are quicker after switching from US made kits to my systems, on every one that has made the upgrade and that's on the old pulsed system never mind the Smooooth system.

Nuff said!!!!

Sadly even though Pete B has loaned Dave his clutch, Dave is still having problems in that depeartment.

Once he's over the launch problems he's fine and the system is working perfectly, in fact Dave has now used the system effectively in it's full on mode and even then it's so smooooth that he's only having a slight problem with wheelies.

It certainly seems that the new radical system is TOO smooth in it's current state which means I've totally achieved my main goal. It's now a matter of getting even more in a bit quicker, as it seems that when nitrous is delivered using this method it doesn't have any of the problems experienced when using conventional kits (even pulsed ones) and a rider can handle FAR more than even I expected. My guess was that a given application should be able to handle TWICE the nitrous power when smooooth than when pulsed but it now seems it could be as much as 6 or 7 times as much, as Dave is currently launching with at least 3 times as much and ultimately adding twice as much with ease.

Talking to turbo guys they all say their power delivery is so smooth they have little trouble using tons of it and it now seems we'll be able to do the same using nitrous (once I get these into production).

Despite Dave's clutch problems he rattled off 5 or more low 9s passes (mostly 9.0s) and the PROTOTYPE smooooth system performed perfectly. I'll now get on with reworking the MAximiser control features and refining the control solenoid.

It has probably been covered already, during my first outing with the smooth progressive system installed on my Hayabusa street bike, I discovered my clutch had finally had enough and passed away. As a result my launches were terrible. Pete Bellenie kindly lent me his spare clutch for my second outing (the Euro Finals) and I was looking forward to running some good times as the bike has shown the potential to run mid 8s. Unfortunately I completely failed to dial in the new clutch and my launches remained terrible. Despite my clutch setting incompetence I still managed to reel off a number of nine-zeros and nine-ones at well over 160mph. This was mainly due to getting all of the bike’s 250bhp on the track before the 330ft mark. In fact for the last few passes I had the nitrous coming in before I reached the Christmas tree!
It was a shame I was unable to realise the full potential of the nitrous system, as one of the main benefits of its smooth power delivery is controllable power at the launch. All I can say is it does deliver the power smoothly. In fact the only wheelie I pulled all weekend was when I LAUNCHED with 50% of the nitrous and the clutch locked up (fond memories of my early Superstreet days came flooding back...).
I think another point needs to be made in the systems favor, and that is: I’ve now made 15 nitrous passes, all but one over 160mph (ran out of nitrous!), and they’ve all been made using TESCOS 99 UNLEADED!
Now that’s smooooth!

Here's the contents of a thread on another forum relating to Dave's use of the smoooth system;

scat (scalded cat)

I get to be the first to test the smoooth progressive on the track and what do I go and do ?

During my first outing with the smooth progressive system installed on my Busa, I discovered my clutch had finally had enough and passed away. As a result my launches were terrible. PeteB kindly lent me his spare clutch for my second outing (the Euro Finals) and I was looking forward to running some good times as the bike has shown the potential to run mid 8s. Unfortunately I completely failed to dial in the new clutch and my launches remained terrible. Despite my clutch setting incompetence I still managed to reel off a number of nine-zeros and nine-ones at well over 160mph. This was mainly due to getting all of the bike’s 250bhp on the track before the 330ft mark. In fact for the last few passes I had the nitrous coming in before I reached the Christmas tree!
It was a shame I was unable to realise the full potential of the nitrous system, as one of the main benefits of its smooth power delivery is controllable power at the launch. All I can say is it does deliver the power smoothly. In fact the only wheelie I pulled all weekend was when I LAUNCHED with 50% of the nitrous and the clutch locked up (fond memories of my early Superstreet days came flooding back...).
I think another point needs to be made in the systems favour, and that is: I’ve now made 15 nitrous passes, all but one over 160mph (ran out of nitrous!), and they’ve all been made using TESCOS 99 UNLEADED!
Now that’s smooooth!

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Lorcan

It would help matters Dave if you clarified the the spec of the bike and it's times without the nitrous, comparable times with a "normal" dry nitrous system, and the times you are expecting from this new system when all is well.

For example, I don't know if you are running stock engine, stock wheelbase etc....yes I have seen your bike but I can't remember the setup of every bike I have seen this year.

Thanks

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pete b

Isn't there an NSA meet at the Pod next weekend...........Do you wanna borrow my slider clutch .....we know it works and its already set for 1.4s 60 fts.
I'd have to make a plug for the end of the shaft but would'nt take long ....we could have the clutch in .........half hour


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Conger

More power sir? - yes please!

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Noswizard

Pete,

I'll take you up on the offer if Dave's game for it, as I'd like him to have another shot at running a decent number.


Lorcan,

Dave will be best to explain exactly why the bike was limited to only 30 bhp of nitrous using our pulsed dry system but I believe it had to do with being limited to just being able to handle a 50% start power due to wheelie problems.

The bike has forged pistons but I believe the rest of the engine is stock.
It has an extended s/a but other than that the chassis is stock and the bike is in genuine street use.

With the pulsed system and a good clutch he ran 8.96s pass and so far with clutch problems he's managed a best of 9.003s @ 166

But the best part is that Dave reports that the system is so smooooth that he can't feel it come in!!!!

By the way the fuel delivery was maxed out from the start so it was massively over rich right up to full power (this will be corrected for the next event), and the timing had the hell knocked out of it right from the start (11 degrees of retard) which was far too much even on full power.

Taking the clutch problems, the excessive fuel and the excessive retard, I'm very confident that the potential for the smooooth system is AWESOME!!!!!

Regards

Trev

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gwhizz65

The terminal speed alone impresses me as for such a small amount on a standard engine, I believe a best of 166mph!! WOW

There are alot of bikes out there using much more horsepower that don't get anywhere near that. I'm sure with the clutch cured its gonna fly

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Noswizard

Thanks for that Graham, it's nice to get some recognition for my efforts.

Taking everything into account I'm VERY HAPPY with the results;


The Dyno performance

The smoothness of the power delivery on the Dyno and the track

The fine electronic control on the track

The ability to handle so much more than a fixed or pulsed system (even my own)

The reliability

The repeatability

The fact that every aspect of the new system (electronics, mechanics, electro-magnets) all worked perfectly from the first activation to the last and performed in unison.

Regardless of the 1/4 results (even though I'm happy enough with those), I have an unprecedented number of positives that I can take away from the FIRST stages of my development program on my FIRST PROTOTYTPE!!!

By the way I think Dave is being too hard on himself, it wasn't his fault the clutch gave up on him and it wasn't his fault this past weekend was wrecked by oil spills and bad weather.
I'd also bet that he was feeling the pressure somewhat, as I'm sure he didn't want to be the weak link in such an project, which probably made it more difficult for him.

In my book he's a top man for lending me his bike and he made a huge effort to produce the numbers for me.


Regards


Trev

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katana

I'm smarter now than then - or ever likely to be!

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Trev - Sorry Scat slight thread jack coming up.......

At present does your smoooooth system only work with a timer / ramp progressive? Will it in future be able to respond to throttle position or MAP to enable full 3D fuel / nitrous mapping.......Seems a logical step if 0 - 100% are possible?

Threadjack over

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scat

Sorry guys - In Eire this weekend for a wedding! There's always the on 2 wheels thing, though now we've proved it works and learnt lots about how to improve it further, perhapse we should sort it out properly - rather than the v-quick lash up that I threw together - it's not even cable tied in place for goodness sake!

Sort the fuelling, the maximiser programming, etc. then throw it down the track some more.

The slider would be easy to get it going, but it would no longer be a street bike. The lockup would have worked ok if I'd brought my original springs with me then I could have ridden it like normal. A 1.60 60ft would have carded an 8.82.

bike is about 4"to 5" over stock, standard engine plus JE pistons ...
bugger this - it's up for sale - read the spec!
http://www.200mph.net/smf/index.php?topic=32616.0

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Noswizard

Katana,

Anything is possible with this system!!!!



Dave,

The sooner we get a "full" and trouble free result the happier I'll be, so if there is another oportunity I'm game for it.

Regards

Trev

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scat

and this is what it looks like
http://www.uk1320.com/2005/eurofinals/t ... bailey.htm

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scat

I think all that people need to know is that the system works. Proving it can make you go faster/quicker is a bit of a farce as there are so many other factors involved and as we all know people will pick up on any little variable and sway the conversation awayfrom the point. And I can’t be bothered to argue the toss!

Or am I being thick in assuming the benefits of the smooth system are SO obvious anyone could understand them?

Maybe we need a list of benefits and downsides...

Downsides:
Will cost (initial outlay for a complete system) a lot more than a single hit system.
Will cost slightly more than a pulsed system.

Benefits over a pulsed system:
Infinitely adjustable between 0% and 100%.
Non-pulsed flow supplies correct mixture to all cylinders all the time.
Correct mixture allows optimum timing all the time.
The above gives increased power and safety from current jet settings.
The above raises the safe limit of the nitrous settings allowing even more nitrous and hence power, to be applied.

So basically, taking a superstreet bike for example (as that’s this forum’s favourite game at the moment). You could double your nitrous power and STILL bring it in earlier than you can at present.

Please feel free to add more...
Cheaper than a turbo?
Lighter than a turbo?
Can be added to a turbo?!

Of course if people can’t see the benefits they’ll have some catching up to do with the rest of us.

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Noswizard

Advantages;

Lack of thermal shock
Lack of mechanical shock
Lack of transmission of said shocks to rider
Much less load at low power settings (where most problems start)
Lack of uneven power cycles
Lack of overly retarded timing over the majority of the cycles over the majority of the progressive range
Lack of uneven delivery from unmatched fuel and nitrous solenoid response rates to PWM
More precise mixture control
Potential for closed loop lambda control
Potential for throttle control
On the final production unit far less current drain
Potential for much higher flow rate than solenoids (without the associated increase in size, weight and current drain).
Potential for electronic mixture adjustment and no need for jets.

Suppose I'd better stop there although I'm sure I could list a few more if I was pushed.


Dave you last statement will apply once all the factors you mentioned in your opening sentance decide to play ball.

Regards

Trev

Just to keep you guys up to date on progress with the Smooooth system, I can report we're totally happy with our first option, the one we tested on Dave Baileys FULL street Busa with which he recorded his PB of 8.84 (despite numerous clutch problems as described in his other threads).

Here is a pic of the unit which is encased to prevent anyone seeing too much too soon, which makes it look bulkier than it actually is, along with his time ticket (nice idea for a pic Dave - thanks for that).



The production version of this unit would be little bigger than our current Pulsoid and is based on the existing Pulsoid design.

However we're now on with our second option which is considerably smaller, so small in fact that I hope to design it down to a similar size to a Fogger nozzle. We've tested a couple of rough prototypes which have worked acceptably well but not given perfect results and we now have a perfect prototype in the process of assembly which I'm confident will give the standard of results I'm after.

The problem then is to decide which to put in production and how to deal with the patent situation.

I'll let you know how the perfect prototype performs in a few days.