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 Post subject: 250 Ninja
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 2:50 am 
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I thought I would start to give some information about my bike. And what I am trying to do.
It is a 2008 Kawasaki Ninja 250. It is a not fuel injected in the US . I have 31mm CR Specials for the carb. I was afraid to use CV carbs with nitrous.

The ignition unit is fully programmable it has two maps and I can change them on the fly. I can change the ignition timing at any rpm and set the rev limit up to 16000 rpm

The engines I use are basically stock But I add 12.5 or 13.5 to 1 forged pistons. I also polish the head combustion chambers to help prevent detonation. I have played with changing cam timing But now run stock timing. I have enough complications to contend with.

for plugs I use NGK cr10e the coldest I can find and have tried Iridium also.
I also tried trimming the ground electrode.

The engine is a 250 now 265cc four stroke. with 41mm stroke and 62 now 64mm bore it is over square, The peek power of the engine is right around 12000 rpm. I have spent four years testing and tuning the bike at the one mile track . I use 100 or 111 octane fuel .

I spent the first year 2008 with a stock engine. Just changing riding position . I went from 89mph to 104 mph. For the 2009 season I did minor bolt on modifications only raising the speed to 110.371mph.For the 2010 season I began to get serous ..I went into the engine and did major body work modifications. I went 112.4 and I feel that was about it .SO I added nitrous.,IT WORKED ONCE the bike hit 122 on the track and slipping the clutch set my fastest speed ever at 121.485mph.
For 2011 I have had problems. I tried to go back with minor changes and went 119mph but put a hole in the #2 piston. I tried again and again and even sent the system back to the manufacture to test and I still had dangerous white plugs. and or the tips would melt off. If I push it the preignition would hole a piston.

It was not trying to spray that much. I was looking for 10 hp from each side . A total of 20 hp from nitrous. From the small amount of Data I collected . I was starting out rich then going lean. With no way of tuning the system at the track I have to start over.
So that is where I am today. Building engines and a new bike for 2012. I am looking forward to working with the Wizards of Nitrous system. I have learned a lot about nitrous over the last year. Now I am dangerous ;)


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 Post subject: Re: 250 Ninja
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 3:33 am 
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Racer X wrote:
I thought I would start to give some information about my bike. And what I am trying to do.
It is a 2008 Kawasaki Ninja 250. It is a not fuel injected in the US . I have 31mm CR Specials for the carb. I was afraid to use CV carbs with nitrous.
Wise move they don't tend to work very together on single cylinder engines but they work OK on 4 cylinders, as the other 3 drag the engine round but I wouldn't like to guess at how it would be on a twin cylinder, so it's good we don't have to be concerned about that.

The ignition unit is fully programmable it has two maps and I can change them on the fly. I can change the ignition timing at any rpm and set the rev limit up to 16000 rpm
Very useful, what brand/model is that?

The engines I use are basically stock But I add 12.5 or 13.5 to 1 forged pistons.
What's stock compression and why 2 compression options at those ratios?

I also polish the head combustion chambers to help prevent detonation. I have played with changing cam timing But now run stock timing. I have enough complications to contend with.
Wise move.

for plugs I use NGK cr10e the coldest I can find and have tried Iridium also.
I also tried trimming the ground electrode.
CR10E should be fine with stock electrode but a shortened version certainly wouldn't do any harm.

The engine is a 250 now 265cc four stroke. with 41mm stroke and 62 now 64mm bore it is over square, The peek power of the engine is right around 12000 rpm. I have spent four years testing and tuning the bike at the one mile track . I use 100 or 111 octane fuel .
Why would you use a 100 octane when you have 110 available?

I spent the first year 2008 with a stock engine. Just changing riding position . I went from 89mph to 104 mph. For the 2009 season I did minor bolt on modifications only raising the speed to 110.371mph.For the 2010 season I began to get serous ..I went into the engine and did major body work modifications. I went 112.4 and I feel that was about it .SO I added nitrous.,IT WORKED ONCE the bike hit 122 on the track and slipping the clutch set my fastest speed ever at 121.485mph.
For 2011 I have had problems. I tried to go back with minor changes and went 119mph but put a hole in the #2 piston. I tried again and again and even sent the system back to the manufacture to test and I still had dangerous white plugs. and or the tips would melt off. If I push it the preignition would hole a piston.
Such a shame so many people suffer such costly and frustrating problems, just because someone wants to make a quick buck!!!!

It was not trying to spray that much. I was looking for 10 hp from each side . A total of 20 hp from nitrous. From the small amount of Data I collected . I was starting out rich then going lean.
The reverse should normally be the case, so there was something seriously wrong with that kit. If you want to find out what was wrong with it you could send it to me and I'd figure it out for you.

With no way of tuning the system at the track I have to start over.
That's just ONE of the many advantages of our systems, as the static test can be quickly and easily carried out anywhere and is as accurate as an AFR gauge.

So that is where I am today. Building engines and a new bike for 2012. I am looking forward to working with the Wizards of Nitrous system.
Likewise.

I have learned a lot about nitrous over the last year. Now I am dangerous ;)
LOL - A little knowledge is said to be dangerous but once you've read my book you'll have more than you know what to do with, so instead of being dangerous, lets say you'll be SERIOUS!!!! :yes:

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 Post subject: Re: 250 Ninja
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 12:00 pm 
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Tthe Ignition is from Bintang Racing in Indonesia. It is called a BRT-Tis. I suspected it was causing problems .I have tested it somewhat. It does work well

I use 100 octane for NA running. The 111 cost 1 hp on the Dyno. But for nitrous I need 111.I tried 118 and it was not good.I also have methanol.but that is another story.

The stock 62mm cast pistons are 11.6 to one.JE Pistons developed the forged pistons with some friends to make a fast 250 ninja. They come in 12, 12.5 or 13 to 1 in stock size. The big bore pistons are 64mm and only come in 12.5 or 13.5 to 1.

I don't want to bash the Boss Noss system .It seems like it should work.I will post up some videos of my testing results. And I will ship you the system..It very well could be someting other than there system .


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 Post subject: Re: 250 Ninja
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:24 pm 
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Racer X wrote:
Tthe Ignition is from Bintang Racing in Indonesia. It is called a BRT-Tis. I suspected it was causing problems .I have tested it somewhat. It does work well
Interesting, I had no idea anything of that kind was made in Indonesia

I use 100 octane for NA running. The 111 cost 1 hp on the Dyno. But for nitrous I need 111.I tried 118 and it was not good.I also have methanol.but that is another story.
OK - FYI methanol does have certain advantages but it also has some disadvantages compared to normal fules but it's a good option for nitrous.

The stock 62mm cast pistons are 11.6 to one.JE Pistons developed the forged pistons with some friends to make a fast 250 ninja. They come in 12, 12.5 or 13 to 1 in stock size. The big bore pistons are 64mm and only come in 12.5 or 13.5 to 1.
Can you get either thicker base gaskets or thicker head gaskets, as lowering the compression will ultimately be beneficial if you want to squeeze as much nitrous as possible in to your engine.

I don't want to bash the Boss Noss system.
Fair enough but I bash ALL other brands, because they ALL use the same components and NONE of them have bothered to learn how nitrous should be delivered to an engine and why the parts they use to do so are at best 'inadequate'.

It seems like it should work. I will post up some videos of my testing results. And I will ship you the system..It very well could be someting other than there system.
These are the possible explanations;
1) There's a restriction in the fuel feed
2) Your fuel pump is inadequate
3) The fuel plunger seal is failing
4) Your battery is inadequate
5) The jet sizes are unsuitable and the initial richness is due to the kit delivering gaseous nitrous before it delivers liquid nitrous
6) You have an air leak in the induction system
There may be others but those are what spring to mind based on your report.

The thing is, even if the kit isn't at fault, if it had been one of mine, 'I' would have helped you solve the problem immediately and that's worth paying double the cost of the kit for, because you'll have wasted more than that in wasted race attempts and damage to your engine.

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30 years of nitrous experience and counting!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: 250 Ninja
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 4:44 pm 
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You would be amazed how much good stuff they have for small bikes.

I have .040 in thick copper gaskets and can adjust cam timing to compensate for the height.But I. Can have any type of piiston made you want. So finding the proper set up will not be hard.

I will post up some vkideos of how the Boss Noss system works.It is different that's for sure.


Last edited by Racer X on Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 250 Ninja
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 8:56 pm 
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I have some reservations about the boss noss system based on my limited nitrous experience. This may ramble on for a while as I have many queries and I may ramble off at a few tangents as I raise queries. :)

The system looks lean and clean with few components. I'm not sure how long this brand has been up and running, or what results they have come up with in competition.
The idea is not new. The principle is not new. The way the liquid nitrous draws fuel out of an orifice is the same way that a compressed air paint gun works. Most of us on here are familiar with the Bernoulli effect !
Heres the basic principle in a plain diagram:
Image

Its a shame the guy didnt go into more technical detail about how the metering injector can maintain a constant 300psi nitrous outlet pressure regardless of bottle pressure? This has confused me somewhat. Or is he saying that the bottle pressure needs to be 300psi?? We all know that an orifice of any size can only flow a maximum volume of whatever, regardless of inlet pressure. But there is a point lower in the pressure range where flow volume through an orifice will alter dependant on the inlet pressure. And as inlet pressure rises the flow volume will stall at a set amount regardless of inlet pressure.
My guess at this time is that the bottle needs to be higher than 300psi, which it will be at ambient temperatures above 10F. At 85 F the bottle pressure will be approx 950psi. That is a huge pressure differential. ?
But I think this is why the system has been made. He has designed a system that should operate without the need for a bottle heater blanket to maintain a stable bottle temperature. For small shots of gas I can see this being a benefit as the temperature of the liquid nitrous will be low and the charge will be very dense.
And if this jetting is correct you should get a good hit from a small shot of very dense nitrous. And if the fuel metering jet is sized to match you would have a very efficient system. But what happens when you go from a 25-50hp shot up to the 300 shot that I use? This is where my confusion steps in to the equation.

Looking at that piston assembly which has a seemingly fixed pressure return / holding spring. I can see how it works. You open the nitrous line and this nitrous pressure builds in the manifold to push the piston back against the spring. The action of the spring being depressed opens the fuel port. The action of the nitrous flow across the fuel port causes a pressure depression (of 15" of mercury, which equates to 7.3psi of negative pressure over the fuel orifice) and draws an amount of fuel into the nitrous stream for discharge into your inlet manifold. This would be at X nitrous flow. So what if we wanted X times 10 nitrous flow?
I assume we would fit a piston with a bigger hole to allow the extra nitrous flow. Would the extra nitrous flow through the bigger orifice in the piston not reduce the amount of back pressure placed upon the spring and therefore reduce the amount of opening of the piston which in turn would reduce the flow of fuel leading to a lean nitrous mix?? This is all speculation based on the vids I have seen from Boss Noss.

The demo vid shows what happens with all the equipment stable and static on a table. But what happens to the fuel flow from the fuel tank when the vehicle is accelerating hard?
In my own car the fuel cell is at the rear of the vehicle with 10 feet of fuel line to the engine bay. The 7psi of suction + pipework resistance will be hindered by the 0.8 G my car pulls off the line.

I have to say that I am not convinced by this system. I can see a test in a static vehicle working on a dyno with a small shot of gas. But the math is obvious. If you have a certain bottle pressure, that pressure will drop in a linear fashion when you draw a fixed amount of nitrous from it. So if I had this system on my car with the bottle at 950 psi and flowing a 300 shot, the pressure drop in the bottle would still be the same regardless of the smart box thing.

You cannot regulate and control an oultet pressure and flow volume from any device with a fixed orifice unless the fixed orifice has already attained max flow potential at the lowest possible inlet pressure from the source. At this point you can confirm that the outlet pressure and flow will remain stable regardless of inlet pressure.
In order to maintain a fixed outlet pressure the control device must be made in such a way that it can increase the orifice size of the inlet feed to the jet as oultet pressure drops.
My guess would be that this system fitted to my car with my fuel pump removed and spraying a 300 shot off the line would see me having a meltdown about 300 feet out on the 1/4 mile??

I may be doing the Boss Noss guy a great injustice as my comments are based on what I have just seen. Maybe I have missed a valuable point somehwere and I will stand corrected shortly.

What if I wanted this system fitted on my V8 motor? How would I spread that discharge evenly into my inlet manifold?

Sorry to ramble on so much. But I see so many flaws in this simple system.??

Heres my disclaimer before I have legal guys onto me:
My observations are based on my interpretation of the test videos I have seen and in no way are intended to berate the functionality or design of the system in question.
My comments are purely hypothetical and are intended to encourage lively debate and positive feedback.

Having said the above I would not use this system on my own race car because in my own opinion it would not work to suit my needs.

Regards
Perry

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 Post subject: Re: 250 Ninja
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 10:07 pm 
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Racer X wrote:
You would be amazed how much good stuff they have for small bikes.
Do you have a link to their website to save me searching?

I have .040 in thick copper gaskets and can adjust cam timing to compensate for the height. But I. Can have any type of piston made you want. So finding the proper set up will not be hard.
In that case send me some pics of your pistons and I'll tell you how to change/improve the design to make them more suitable to handle some BIG numbers.

I will post up some videos of how the Boss Noss system works. It is different that's for sure.
As far as I'm aware the ONLY difference between Boss Noss & ALL other kits, is that Boss Noss are stupid enough to 'THINK' they can 'regulate' LIQUID nitrous. What they obviously don't understand, is that it's IMPOSSIBLE to do that!!!!

Now I've realised that's probably what you've got and why you've stated they are different (because ALL other parts are exactly the same), I realise exactly what your problems were caused by.

You can regulate a LIQUID that is a LIQUID at room temp and you can regulate a GAS that is a GAS at room temp but when you try to regulate a LIQUID that is a GAS at room temp all sorts of problems occur and that's why we DO NOT & WILL NOT ever sell a nitrous pressure regulated system.

The problems are as follows;
1) ATTEMPTING to regulate a LIQUID which is a GAS at room temp causes A LOSS IN DENSITY and the bigger the differential between the bottle pressure and the regulated output pressure the bigger the density drop.

Before I continue, just to prove how VITALLY IMPORTANT density is to nitrous injection, please consider the following.
Back when nitrous was being used on planes in the war, 3 countries (UK, USA & Germany) carried out intensive experimentation and the SCIENTISTS who carried out this work concluded the following;
Using LIQUID nitrous REDUCED the likelihood of detonation
Using GASEOUS nitrous INCREASED the likelihood of detonation

Even flowing nitrous through a NORMAL nitrous kit (but NOT a WON system), causes a SUBSTANTIAL DROP in density and that’s one of the main reasons why, WON systems are able to make more power, more reliably than ANY other kit, especially Boss Noss.

2) As the LIQUID nitrous passes through the regulator, in order to achieve a reduction in pressure it has to lose density (as just stated) and in so doing there is also a drop in temperature. This drop in temperature freezes the internal components of the regulator, which causes the regulator to act unpredictably. Rather than moving smoothly as is ESSENTIAL, the movement is jerky or at worst it sticks and if you’re lucky will jump.

The consequences of these issues are;
1) There’s no chance of the pressure remaining constant
2) Even if it that was possible, the drop in density would make the engine more prone to detonation.

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 Post subject: Re: 250 Ninja
PostPosted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:57 pm 
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mgbv8 wrote:
I have some reservations about the boss noss system based on my limited nitrous experience.
Wise man!!!

The system looks lean and clean with few components. I'm not sure how long this brand has been up and running, or what results they have come up with in competition.
Not long as far as I'm aware (I first heard of them about 10 years ago I believe) and not much in the way of competition wins based on their site if nothing else.

The idea is not new. The principle is not new.
Agreed, I tried the same principle about 30 years ago and concluded that it COULD NOT WORK when using a LIQUID GAS.

The way the liquid nitrous draws fuel out of an orifice is the same way that a compressed air paint gun works.
The principle may be the same but the result isn't, due to the liquid expanding to gas as it passes through the venturi.

Its a shame the guy didnt go into more technical detail about how the metering injector can maintain a constant 300psi nitrous outlet pressure regardless of bottle pressure?
It seems I should have checked out their site before making my previous post, as it seems they've changed their pressure reduction method (or at least the component that does it) but my information relating to the effects of a drop in nitrous pressure, still stand and their current methods and 'technology' is even worse than I was aware of.

This has confused me somewhat.
There is ONLY ONE way of reducing the nitrous pressure and that's using the same principles as ANY regulator.

Or is he saying that the bottle pressure needs to be 300psi??
No the bottle is normal pressure.

We all know that an orifice of any size can only flow a maximum volume of whatever, regardless of inlet pressure.
That's not true Perry, as the flow through an orifice is dependent on, size, length of bore AND PRESSURE.

But there is a point lower in the pressure range where flow volume through an orifice will alter dependant on the inlet pressure.
Again that's not entirely correct, as it applies across the entire pressure range. What is correct and may be why you've got this wrong, is that as pressure rises, the change in flow per psi falls.

And as inlet pressure rises the flow volume will stall at a set amount regardless of inlet pressure.
That is practically correct, because of the reason given above.

My guess at this time is that the bottle needs to be higher than 300psi, which it will be at ambient temperatures above 10F.
To maintain a constant pressure (using a regulation method) means a higher supply pressure is mandatory.

At 85 F the bottle pressure will be approx 950psi. That is a huge pressure differential. ?
Exactly right and as I stated in my previous post, the bigger the differential THE BIGGER THE DROP IN DENSITY.

But I think this is why the system has been made. He has designed a system that should operate without the need for a bottle heater blanket to maintain a stable bottle temperature.
I'd go a stage further, he's tried to simplify a nitrous system to consist of fewer components, as there would be a good few financial advantages in doing so IF IT HAD WORKED CORRECTLY.

For small shots of gas I can see this being a benefit as the temperature of the liquid nitrous will be low and the charge will be very dense.
The temperature is independent of the size of shots, however, the short comings of this concept will certainly be less detrimental on smaller doses but not for the reason you've given. The problem is that those smaller doses are being applied to smaller engines and as a consequence, they are still relatively large percentage power increases and that's why anyone using such a system, will be at greater risk of engine damage.

And if this jetting is correct you should get a good hit from a small shot of very dense nitrous.
If the bottle pressure was (as I think you are incorrectly assuming) at just 300 psi, that would be correct but because the bottle pressure is actually ANYTHING as high as 1,000 psi, that's not going to be the case.
On that point though, I believe their main market is snowmobiles, where the bottle pressure is likely to potentially be even lower than 300 psi, so there'd be less of a problem regulating down from say 400 psi to 300 psi.


And if the fuel metering jet is sized to match you would have a very efficient system. But what happens when you go from a 25-50hp shot up to the 300 shot that I use? This is where my confusion steps in to the equation.
That's a key factor, because this concept wouldn't be physically practical for large power gains.
Think back to your diagram and look at the ratio of the inlet tube to the outlet tube, which is obviously MUCH bigger.
As you increase the inlet size you have to increase the outlet tube size and if that wasn't bad enough, when using nitrous LIQUID the ratio of the outlet to the inlet has to be much bigger, otherwise you lose the vac effect.
When I tested this concept it was soon obvious to me, that the size of the outlet would quickly become too big to incorporate in an injector that could be fitted in to an average size inlet track.


Looking at that piston assembly which has a seemingly fixed pressure return / holding spring. I can see how it works.
What I find interesting, is how they avoid mentioning that there MUST be a solenoid in the system and that they imply it's simpler than it really is by containing it with the 'Smartbox' along with a bunch of other parts and I wouldn't be surprised to find a regulator in the box as well, as it's my GUESS that the valve in the injector is JUST to give a positive shut off to the fuel flow.
BTW I also have a prototype that I created approx. 30 years ago that did exactly that. The injector incorporated a pressure activated valve that opened a fuel valve, which was activated by the nitrous pressure entering the injector. I gave up on that design before taking it to market, because I realised the response rate of the valve would be too slow and at best out of phase with the pulsing of solenoids, so it wouldn't be compatible with pulsed progressive systems.


You open the nitrous line and this nitrous pressure builds in the manifold to push the piston back against the spring. The action of the spring being depressed opens the fuel port. The action of the nitrous flow across the fuel port causes a pressure depression (of 15" of mercury, which equates to 7.3psi of negative pressure over the fuel orifice) and draws an amount of fuel into the nitrous stream for discharge into your inlet manifold.
Exactly right.

This would be at X nitrous flow. So what if we wanted X times 10 nitrous flow?
It wouldn't work without being MUCH bigger and as stated above it would be too big to be practical.

I assume we would fit a piston with a bigger hole to allow the extra nitrous flow. Would the extra nitrous flow through the bigger orifice in the piston not reduce the amount of back pressure placed upon the spring and therefore reduce the amount of opening of the piston which in turn would reduce the flow of fuel leading to a lean nitrous mix?? This is all speculation based on the vids I have seen from Boss Noss.
Yes it would have that effect on pressure (although I'd expect there to be adequate tolerance on the valve opening to prevent it restricting fuel flow BUT the higher flow of nitrous would (as stated above) would reduce the vac effect and ultimately lead to back pressure where there was vac before.

The demo vid shows what happens with all the equipment stable and static on a table. But what happens to the fuel flow from the fuel tank when the vehicle is accelerating hard?
Not sure there'd be much difference on that basis BUT what isn't taken in to account, is the effect of gravity on the fuel flow (as their container is below the point of injection), which is substantial even without the complexity of their vac effect.
They IMPLY/CLAIM this design not only simplifies but also stabilises the function of a nitrous system but in reality, all they've done is switch one cause of inconsistency for another.


In my own car the fuel cell is at the rear of the vehicle with 10 feet of fuel line to the engine bay. The 7psi of suction + pipework resistance will be hindered by the 0.8 G my car pulls off the line.
There's no chance this concept would work on a car and it's far from perfect on most bikes - there are one or two bikes with low level tanks, the VMAX is an example. I'm pretty sure that snowmobiles have low level fuel tanks, so their demo and their design may well work adequately well on what they were originally designed for but that's where it should and.

I have to say that I am not convinced by this system.
Glad to hear it!!!

I can see a test in a static vehicle working on a dyno with a small shot of gas.
Agreed that may work 'ADEQUATELY'

But the math is obvious. If you have a certain bottle pressure, that pressure will drop in a linear fashion when you draw a fixed amount of nitrous from it. So if I had this system on my car with the bottle at 950 psi and flowing a 300 shot, the pressure drop in the bottle would still be the same regardless of the smart box thing.
That's NOT the case Perry as the whole point of this concept is that by regulating the nitrous pressure BELOW the pressure that it will ever drop to in use, the feed pressure to the injector valve will be A CONSTANT PRESSURE.
THE PROBLEM IS, that the DENSITY WILL NOT BE CONSTANT and I'd expect it to be inversely proportional or at least close, as stated earlier.


You cannot regulate and control an oultet pressure and flow volume from any device with a fixed orifice unless the fixed orifice has already attained max flow potential at the lowest possible inlet pressure from the source. At this point you can confirm that the outlet pressure and flow will remain stable regardless of inlet pressure.
Contrary to what they are implying, I'm pretty sure the nitrous pressure is regulated down to 300 psi in the 'Smartbox' using a conventional regulator, so the pressure control is not dependent on that fixed orifice in the injector component.

In order to maintain a fixed outlet pressure the control device must be made in such a way that it can increase the orifice size of the inlet feed to the jet as oultet pressure drops.
Agreed and exactly right, although there are other slightly different ways to change flow.

My guess would be that this system fitted to my car with my fuel pump removed and spraying a 300 shot off the line would see me having a meltdown about 300 feet out on the 1/4 mile??
More like INSTANTLY Perry.

I may be doing the Boss Noss guy a great injustice as my comments are based on what I have just seen. Maybe I have missed a valuable point somehwere and I will stand corrected shortly.
Me to but I'm confident I've got a handle on all this, because as I have stated (and can prove, as I still have the prototypes), I've already experimented with these concepts and I know their limitations.

What if I wanted this system fitted on my V8 motor? How would I spread that discharge evenly into my inlet manifold?
Another VERY GOOD POINT it can only be used at the point of injection, because any restriction AFTER the point where the nitrous mixes with the fuel, would result in nitrous back pressure entering the fuel system.

Sorry to ramble on so much. But I see so many flaws in this simple system.??
Exactly right.

Having said the above I would not use this system on my own race car because in my own opinion it would not work to suit my needs.
Even though some of your observations/thinking is entirely correct, you've certainly come to the correct conclusion.

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 Post subject: Re: 250 Ninja
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:11 am 
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Perry I've just noticed that the flow direction through your diagram is the reverse of what it should be for nitrous use at least.

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 Post subject: Re: 250 Ninja
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 12:19 am 
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I found NOTHING but problems with detonation/Preignition. Also when testing I found inconsistent discharge between the two injectors. Check out this video. .I made all the measurements I could.I measured nitrous weight and fuel volume/weight . it all was correct . Does this look like an even discharge?After changing the parts around it looked better. Still blew the engine up after 5 sec of spray. EGT over 1400 deg.F

http://youtu.be/Gr4_azWJ688


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 Post subject: Re: 250 Ninja
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:18 am 
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Racer X wrote:
I found NOTHING but problems with detonation/Preignition.
For the reasons I've given.

Also when testing I found inconsistent discharge between the two injectors.
That doesn't surprise me in the least.
Another contributory factor is likely to be as follows;
When nitrous passes through a component (ANY component), especially when that part is close to the end outlet of the nitrous path;
1) It exchanges heat with that part.
2) ANY IMPERFECTION in the surface (even the VERY SMALLEST that's invisible to the naked eye), that the nitrous flows over, suffers a greater heat exchange than the rest of the surface and as a consequence it starts to freeze.
3) The freezing builds a frost layer on the imperfection and the longer the flow continues, the bigger the imperfection grows - UP TO A POINT.
4) Eventually the frost coating on the imperfection builds to such a size that it causes such an obstruction to flow, that it breaks off due to the force of the nitrous flow acting on the groing surface area.
5) To compound matters, this freezing process is RANDOM as there are an infinite number of microscopic imperfections in even the best machined components.
6) The result is that the flow through EXACTLY THE SAME COMPONENTS can change from test to test and the flow through 2 or more components that APPEAR TO BE IDENTICAL, will struggle to EVER flow the same as each other.

We attempt to combat this problem in a number of ways (component design, flow path design, choice of material, quality of machining) and as a consequence our systems don't suffer from this problem as much as other brands which HAVE NO IDEA THIS PROBLEM EVEN EXISTS!!!!
I take this problem so seriously that I'm even looking in to having all the internals of our components flow polished and then PTFE coated, as I believe that's the ONLY way to achieve perfect results.


Check out this video. .I made all the measurements I could.I measured nitrous weight and fuel volume/weight . it all was correct . Does this look like an even discharge?
ABSOLUTELY FAR FROM ANYTHING LIKE EVEN!!!

After changing the parts around it looked better. Still blew the engine up after 5 sec of spray. EGT over 1400 deg.F
It may well have 'looked' better but;
1) Unless you have our top secret & UNIQUE method of analysing nitrous flow density, you can't tell by eye
2) As stated above, the problem I've just described causes totally RANDOM results, so the one you watched may have been almost perfect but you'd be very unlikely to see ANOTHER perfect flow, unless you carried out dozens if not hundreds of tests, so when you used it on the track it would once again have been uneven.

ALL US nitrous kits are made by people who ONLY CARE ABOUT PROFIT and as a consequence they aim their products at the mass volume market, which is the LOW BUDGET market. By doing so they have to make their parts (or buy in their parts) as CHEAPLY AS POSSIBLE and to do that the parts are INADEQUATLEY DESIGNED, ROUGHLY MACHINED & generally POOR QUALITY.
In contrast to that, the ONLY reason I'm still running my business (rather than retired), is because I intend to prove conclusively that WON PRODUCTS ARE THE BEST and if I manage to make a profit in the process, then that's a bonus.

Although many people may think our systems are overpriced, if an assessment were made based on based on the profits being made by my company, compared to ALL the others, it's those companies products that are overpriced, as they make far more profit than we do. They are selling generic junk for little less than we sell our systems, even though our systems benefit from £100,000s (if not £1,000,000s over the past 35 years) of R&D investment, numerous technical advances as a consequence, superior performance, reliability, quality, etc. etc.

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 Post subject: Re: 250 Ninja
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:49 am 
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Yes it is the random results I can not tolerate. I have been racing this bike down the same stretch of track for 4 years,over 100 passes. I keep detailed notes regarding gearing and timing and jetting changes that I make. Plus weather conditions.
When I started using the Boss Noss system .I found the same results from different setups. I can tell when I am chasing my tail.

As for pistons I would like to use shelf pistons. The lead time is low. I can get them over night. And the cost is about half.
What sort of compression do you think is best for nitrous.

I have to work with my intended goal. That goal is 125 mph on a 250 Ninja. To do this I calculate I need between 55 and 60 hp. The engines that I build make about 33 with 250cc and I am hoping to get close to 40 with a 265cc engine. I am looking for 15-30 hp from the nitrous. just enough to push the tack from 12000 RPM to about 13500. The rev limiter is set to 14000.
It seems the small shot is a problem. Can we make a 7-15 hp shot in each cylinder?

This is what I do with the bike to go as fast as I can at the end of a mile. No use going fast at the half way point. I need the top speed in the last 88 feet. Sorry about all the not metric measurements.

I have one mile to get up to speed . I go through 1st 2nd and 3rd like a drag racer. Then in 4th I tap the nitrous button to push the tack some. same thing in 5th.Just a small push of the button. Once I am in 6th gear I am at or about the 1/2 mile marker. from there I can start to spray and let the bike build speed.



This is a video from the nose of the bike. action starts at 2.17 on the video .I edited it but it has not changed. http://youtu.be/IBxr0-sJL_E

You can hear the clutch slip. I have that fixed I think. The bike will go from 88mph to 108 in less than 1/8 of a mile.but then it noses over. I know it is the system going lean.I can feel it.
I need to go to 125mph and will need to spray for 1/2 a mile in 6th gear. So it is a balance of power from the engine and power added from the nitrous that does not burn down the house. Spraying for 25 seconds is a lot to ask. But I think a powerful engine with a little nitrous Is better than a weak moter with a lot of nitrous. BUT I may be wrong.


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 Post subject: Re: 250 Ninja
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 3:18 am 
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Racer X wrote:
Yes it is the random results I can not tolerate.
I have detailed video's showing what I described as the cause of this random condition and when I get time I'll post them on my website video page.
In the meantime, if you take ANY US nitrous brand solenoid and just energise it and watch the flow from the outlet, you'll see it dances about all over the place - here's video showing what I'm talking about (take a GOOD LONG CLOSE look at the entire plume from the right hand US brand solenoid);

http://www.noswizard.com/videos/Pulsoid ... mo%203.wmv

The plume on the left is from a WON Pulsoid and although that doesn't look perfect, that's because;
1) It isn't quite perfect as we were just learning about such things when we took this video
2) The Pulsoid plume is too close to the generic solenoid plume and it's being affected by the changing flow & pressure waves from that.
3) Despite that, the Pulsoid plume is FAR MORE CONSISTENT than that from the generic solenoid.

Take a GOOD LONG look at this video as well, because this shows the same problems showing up in a FULL US NOS kit in action. The fluctuations in flow are just DIABOLICAL and the companies making such JUNK should be sued in to bankruptcy;


http://www.noswizard.com/videos/Generic ... 0flow1.wmv

I have been racing this bike down the same stretch of track for 4 years,over 100 passes. I keep detailed notes regarding gearing and timing and jetting changes that I make. Plus weather conditions.
When I started using the Boss Noss system .I found the same results from different setups. I can tell when I am chasing my tail.
You and everyone else who uses ANY other nitrous products than a FULL WON system.

As for pistons I would like to use shelf pistons. The lead time is low. I can get them over night. And the cost is about half.
If you have ONE made to my design, you'll NEVER need another, so although it may cost twice as much you'll save MUCH MORE in the long run. Having said that, even with the worst cast piston in the world, with a WON system you'll still be far less likely to damage it than you would using any other brand on a top quality forged piston.
Start with whatever you're happy with but if you want to push the limits then a purpose made piston will be worth its weight in gold to you.


What sort of compression do you think is best for nitrous.
That depends on a whole bunch of factors and changes with the amount of nitrous you use.
The less nitrous you use the higher the comp can be and the higher the nitrous dose the lower the comp should be.
Again you can start with whatever you have and develope from there.


I have to work with my intended goal. That goal is 125 mph on a 250 Ninja.
I can make that happen with both arms tied behind my back and I can do it 100% reliably.

To do this I calculate I need between 55 and 60 hp. The engines that I build make about 33 with 250cc and I am hoping to get close to 40 with a 265cc engine. I am looking for 15-30 hp from the nitrous. just enough to push the tack from 12000 RPM to about 13500. The rev limiter is set to 14000.
It seems the small shot is a problem. Can we make a 7-15 hp shot in each cylinder?
Why is it a problem??? IT COULDN'T BE EASIER - I've made from 5 to 30 HP increases on an ALL STOCK Z200 Kawasaki that we used for some R&D plus we've made a range of power increases on a range of engines from as little as 10cc right up to many 1,000s.
My first test bike was a BSA 250cc single, that made just 16 HP and was ALL STOCK. I added SIXTY HP and raced it all season long without the slightest problem. I then dyno'd it in steps ranging from 20 to 120 HP and it even survived the 120 settings and this was when I knew NOTHING!!!!!
The bike was raced for a few years on 60 HP settings and I still have it in PERFECT ORDER with only the 2nd STOCK CAST piston I ever had to use still in it and I'm thinking of giving it a brush down and an updated nitrous system to show the world what we can do with it now that we KNOW A LOT!!!!


This is what I do with the bike to go as fast as I can at the end of a mile. No use going fast at the half way point. I need the top speed in the last 88 feet. Sorry about all the not metric measurements.
We still use the mile and imperial distances here, so no problem there.

I have one mile to get up to speed . I go through 1st 2nd and 3rd like a drag racer. Then in 4th I tap the nitrous button to push the tack some. same thing in 5th.Just a small push of the button. Once I am in 6th gear I am at or about the 1/2 mile marker. from there I can start to spray and let the bike build speed.
If you're happy with that arrangement it makes my job even easier, because I'd have NO PROBLEM with you using a WON system from start to finish!!!!!

This is a video from the nose of the bike. action starts at 2.17 on the video .I edited it but it has not changed. http://youtu.be/IBxr0-sJL_E

You can hear the clutch slip. I have that fixed I think.
Make sure you do the clutch mod described in my book if you want to get the BEST results.

The bike will go from 88mph to 108 in less than 1/8 of a mile.but then it noses over. I know it is the system going lean.I can feel it.
My system WON'T go lean.

I need to go to 125mph and will need to spray for 1/2 a mile in 6th gear. So it is a balance of power from the engine and power added from the nitrous that does not burn down the house.
You'll NEVER do ANY further damage no matter how long you use a WON system as long as you follow ALL my advice and even if you didn't do that, you'd still have to do something stupid to damage an engine using my systems.

Spraying for 25 seconds is a lot to ask.
NOT with a correctly designed nitrous system it isn't - IT'S A BREEZE!!! :yes:

But I think a powerful engine with a little nitrous Is better than a weak moter with a lot of nitrous. BUT I may be wrong.
Either will work but a strong motor with TONS of nitrous will do even better.

BTW this isn't sales BULLSHIT this is ALL FACT!!!!!

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 Post subject: Re: 250 Ninja
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:57 am 
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I. Am very much looking forward to this. I will post up piston photos and we will start there.
The other reason I want to use off the shelf parts is I am not trying to do this once or twice.I run this bike 4 times a year on the mile .that is like 30 passes.Plus I drag race.that is a totally different thing AND I am taking the bike to Bonniville to run on the salt. I am building three engines now and shelf parts make that easy.
Jarl says your on top of this .From reading the web page I can see this is no Bull.


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 Post subject: Re: 250 Ninja
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 7:58 am 
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Ahh!
It was designed for snowmobiles. That makes sense now :)
Maybe this was why he designed it to work at low bottle pressures?

There must be a mechanical reg hidden in that thar box ;)

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 Post subject: Re: 250 Ninja
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:08 am 
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Yes Boss Noss is for snowmobiles. They have to contend with sub zero temps..and they don't have enough charging system to run a bottle heater.I am always looking at go cart and snowmobile performance modifications.

From my experence at Maxton .I have no problem with bottle pressure.I was running a small bottle1.25 lb. In the hottest months I watch the guage and vent it at 1200 psi and in cooler times I would have 900 psi . I know I need a bigger bottle for consistant pressure. I have a powerfull charging system so heating is not a problem.
Should I run a 2 .5lb bottle or two 20oz bottles? Packaging for aerodynamics is a big deal to land speed racing.
I do not use any fairings so I can't hide things.


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 Post subject: Re: 250 Ninja
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 11:47 am 
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This is my 250 ninja. It has had a lot of changes from stock. It is 90 lb lighter than original.


Image

this is with the fairings

Image


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 Post subject: Re: 250 Ninja
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:18 pm 
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Racer X wrote:
I. Am very much looking forward to this. I will post up piston photos and we will start there.
The other reason I want to use off the shelf parts is I am not trying to do this once or twice.I run this bike 4 times a year on the mile .that is like 30 passes.Plus I drag race.that is a totally different thing AND I am taking the bike to Bonniville to run on the salt. I am building three engines now and shelf parts make that easy.
Understood and the choice is yours but keep the following in mind;
1) The pistons are THE MOST IMPORTANT PART of the engine with regards to nitrous use
2) An unsuitable piston design can not only fail in use prematurely due to inadequate design/strength but it can actually CAUSE the failure and this is particularly applicable to high comp pistons
3) Done correctly you'll only have to do it once.


Jarl says your on top of this .From reading the web page I can see this is no Bull.
Thanks for that. :yes:

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 Post subject: Re: 250 Ninja
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:29 pm 
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mgbv8 wrote:
Ahh!
It was designed for snowmobiles. That makes sense now :)
Maybe this was why he designed it to work at low bottle pressures?
It's EXACTLY WHY they did and it's also the main reason they get away with it on snowmobiles, because the air charge is so cold and dense that the engines are FAR LESS prone to detonate under such conditions. Furthermore, the drop in pressure across the reg is far less than it would be in hot temps, so the drop in density is far less.
Apart from the poor quality of the components, it's a reasonably good solution for THAT PARTICULAR APPLICATION but it doesn't transfer to ANY OTHER.


There must be a mechanical reg hidden in that thar box ;)
Their first kits JUST had a reg, so I'm sure they must still be using that technique but now they've added the mechanical fuel valve and the mixing nozzle.
The mechanical fuel valve is a decent idea for a FIXED hit but again that means it has it's limits.
The mixing nozzle is also a decent idea but again for all the reasons given, it also has very low limitations.
Due to the extremely wide range of applications my systems are used on, I've had to find solutions that solve problems across that range in a common way and that's why my products are the design they are.

I doubt ANYONE has invented or designed ANY nitrous related concept/product, that I haven't already prototyped and rejected (LONG BEFORE NOW), in favour of a superior invention/design.


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 Post subject: Re: 250 Ninja
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:32 pm 
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Racer X wrote:
Yes Boss Noss is for snowmobiles. They have to contend with sub zero temps..and they don't have enough charging system to run a bottle heater.
All good reasons for such a design but it should be kept in mind that such designs are best limited to such applications.


From my experence at Maxton .I have no problem with bottle pressure.I was running a small bottle1.25 lb. In the hottest months I watch the guage and vent it at 1200 psi and in cooler times I would have 900 psi . I know I need a bigger bottle for consistant pressure. I have a powerfull charging system so heating is not a problem.
Should I run a 2 .5lb bottle or two 20oz bottles? Packaging for aerodynamics is a big deal to land speed racing.
I do not use any fairings so I can't hide things.
The more you can carry the better and having 2 rather than 1 should make it easier to mount in a suitable manner.

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 Post subject: Re: 250 Ninja
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:35 pm 
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Racer X wrote:
This is my 250 ninja. It has had a lot of changes from stock. It is 90 lb lighter than original.
this is with the fairings
Surely you could squeeze a decent size bottle under that tail piece or make that a bit bigger to do so!!!

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 Post subject: Re: 250 Ninja
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:27 pm 
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I am not going to use the rear section fairing.I was thinking of two bottles behind me.That way the tire can go up between them.

I will post up photos of the pistons and I will contact JE about custom.The 13 to 1 pistons have large sharp points on them and are a bit heavy.I could use the shelf pistons and remove the sharp edges if that would help.But I will call Monday.

I will send you the Boss Noss system.Just as it comes off the bike. Then you can see what I have been struggling with. Seven races and five engine failures . I don't think it is me.well one time it was all my fault.


Last edited by Racer X on Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: 250 Ninja
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 5:20 pm 
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Racer X wrote:
I am not going to use the rear section fairing.I was thinking of two bottles behind me.That way the tire can go up between them.
Sounds fine to me.

I will post up photos of the pistons and I will contact JE about custom.The 12.5 to 1 pistons have large sharp points on them and are a bit heavy.I could use the shelf pistons and remove the sharp edges if that would help.But I will call Monday.
Sharp edges are to be AVOIDED AT ALL COSTS on a nitrous engine and are far from ideal NA anyway.
Pistons are better as light as possible but I'd rather have strong heavy pistons than lighter weak ones.

I will send you the Boss Noss system.Just as it comes off the bike. Then you can see what I have been struggling with.
I'll look forward to it and then I can give you a full appraisal of the causes of the problems.

Seven races and five engine failures. I don't think it is me.well one time it was all my fault.
That's a TERRIBLE record (especially with forged pistons) and I'd be VERY surprised if I found the kit itself wasn't at fault.

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 Post subject: Re: 250 Ninja
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 8:32 pm 
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But the math is obvious. If you have a certain bottle pressure, that pressure will drop in a linear fashion when you draw a fixed amount of nitrous from it. So if I had this system on my car with the bottle at 950 psi and flowing a 300 shot, the pressure drop in the bottle would still be the same regardless of the smart box thing.

That's NOT the case Perry as the whole point of this concept is that by regulating the nitrous pressure BELOW the pressure that it will ever drop to in use, the feed pressure to the injector valve will be A CONSTANT PRESSURE.
THE PROBLEM IS, that the DENSITY WILL NOT BE CONSTANT and I'd expect it to be inversely proportional or at least close, as stated earlier.


I didnt make myself clear on this.
What I was trying to say was, if I draw my 300hp WON shot of gas from a full bottle for a fixed time period, the bottle pressure will drop by X amount by the end of the time period. So regardless of all the gubbin's between my bottle and injector. If the Boss Noss gubbins can actually flow the same 300 shot that my won system does, surely the same amount of liquid will have been taken from the bottle over the same time period. This assumes both tests on full stabilised bottles at the same pressures.

So if I have my bottle at 950psi with the smart box and nozzle set to deliver at 300psi, in order to achieve my 300shot wont I need to fit a bigger piston jet to allow enough nitrous to flow at a lower pressure to still give me the full 300hp of liquid?
So if I have to flow x pounds of gas in 10 seconds to give me the 300 shot, thats what I need to flow. So the bottle contents must have still reduced by X pounds of liquid in 10 seconds, be it at 950psi delivery pressure or 300psi delivery pressure.
Do you see what I'm getting at? If you flow an amount of liquid from the bottle in a fixed time period to meet a demand the pressure drop would be the same regardless of what was between bottle and injector wouldnt it? I can see that the density of the nitrous may be lower on the Boss Noss system, so in order to correct this you would fit bigger and bigger nitrous piston jets to achieve the correct weight loss from the bottle to ensure you have flowed the correct weight of liquid to make the 300 shot in the 10 second test period.

Its probably not relevant as I dont suppose this system was designed for flowing amounts like this.
But I do now understand why it was made to fill a niche in the market.

Do you think fuel freezing might be a problem on a system like this that is being used with such low air intake temps??

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 Post subject: Re: 250 Ninja
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 9:48 pm 
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These are the pistons. As you can see the 13 to 1 pistons are sharp pointed on top. I don't think that is good for nitrous. The 12.5 to1 seem to be just as fast.

I spoke with JE about getting thicker crowns and they said the crown on the piston was designed to withstand the load from nitrous. My problem needed to be solved or I would bend rods. But they would be glad to make me pistons. Since the person I talk to also designed the pistons for the other 250 Ninja team and Kawasaki. I have to agree with him that I have a problem that is damaging pistons. And I believe him that the piston are strong. What IS week is the architecture of the engine. I am afraid of puling case bolts. I am getting studs.But this is a plane bearing aluminum engine designed for 24 hp
Image
12.5 to 1

Image

13 to 1

Image


Last edited by Racer X on Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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